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	<title>Comments on: Imperial Death March: Assigning value to ecosystems</title>
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	<link>http://www.triplepundit.com/2009/04/imperial-death-march-assigning-value-to-ecosystems/</link>
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		<title>By: Laurie</title>
		<link>http://www.triplepundit.com/2009/04/imperial-death-march-assigning-value-to-ecosystems/comment-page-1/#comment-9245</link>
		<dc:creator>Laurie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 02:13:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I find this discussion very interesting--but more--I find it reassuring that economics is being studied in relation to sustainable ecosystems. I would like to know how engrained into the American system of capitalism this thinking has become. I know that&#039;s probably hard to assess. But are there mainstream economists and corporate leaders that are using this model?
In any case, I am reassured by this thinking and encourage its continuation, so that all of us non-nihilists and our children can continue...
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find this discussion very interesting&#8211;but more&#8211;I find it reassuring that economics is being studied in relation to sustainable ecosystems. I would like to know how engrained into the American system of capitalism this thinking has become. I know that&#8217;s probably hard to assess. But are there mainstream economists and corporate leaders that are using this model?<br />
In any case, I am reassured by this thinking and encourage its continuation, so that all of us non-nihilists and our children can continue&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Josh Gelfand</title>
		<link>http://www.triplepundit.com/2009/04/imperial-death-march-assigning-value-to-ecosystems/comment-page-1/#comment-9244</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh Gelfand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 18:23:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.triplepundit.com/wordpress/2009/04/imperial-death-march-assigning-value-to-ecosystems/#comment-9244</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;For clarity:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Economic Imperialism is defined as a strategy for integrating ecology and economics that seeks to expand the boundary of the economic subsystem until it encompasses the entire ecosystem (Daly and Farley, p. 50). So it is NOT, as &quot;Ev&quot; claims, &quot;economic dominance. This is a theoretical component of ecological economics that seeks to define ecosystems through an economic paradigm.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Economics establish price-to-product/service ratios. The problem with economic imperialism is that it would price natural capital - like air, water and trees - relative to a perceived market value rather than valuing these necessities outside an economic subsystem, basing their values on the intangible benefits they provide.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Alternatives to economic imperialism include economic reductionism, which sets the economy as a subsystem of the natural ecosystem. It suggests, falsely, that human action is entirely reducible to the laws of nature, or that the naturalistic principles that apply to ecosystems also apply to the economic subsystem.
&lt;p&gt;The best alternative according to Daly and Farley, which is the foundation of the ecological economics argument, is the Steady-State subsystem. This concept does not try to erase the boundaries between the economic and the ecological subsystems, rather it enforces the boundaries by dictating that the &quot;throughput by which the ecosystem maintains and replenishes the economic subsystem must be ecologically sustainable.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So in your &quot;Sell trees. Make Pulp. Make dollar bills&quot; argument, you fail to understand the boundary between extraction and replenishment. Exploiting a finite resource, and relying economically on that exploitation, will inevitably lead to an unsustainable economy. Unless you are a nihilist, this is not a viable option.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For clarity:</p>
<p>Economic Imperialism is defined as a strategy for integrating ecology and economics that seeks to expand the boundary of the economic subsystem until it encompasses the entire ecosystem (Daly and Farley, p. 50). So it is NOT, as &#8220;Ev&#8221; claims, &#8220;economic dominance. This is a theoretical component of ecological economics that seeks to define ecosystems through an economic paradigm.</p>
<p>Economics establish price-to-product/service ratios. The problem with economic imperialism is that it would price natural capital &#8211; like air, water and trees &#8211; relative to a perceived market value rather than valuing these necessities outside an economic subsystem, basing their values on the intangible benefits they provide.</p>
<p>Alternatives to economic imperialism include economic reductionism, which sets the economy as a subsystem of the natural ecosystem. It suggests, falsely, that human action is entirely reducible to the laws of nature, or that the naturalistic principles that apply to ecosystems also apply to the economic subsystem.
</p>
<p>The best alternative according to Daly and Farley, which is the foundation of the ecological economics argument, is the Steady-State subsystem. This concept does not try to erase the boundaries between the economic and the ecological subsystems, rather it enforces the boundaries by dictating that the &#8220;throughput by which the ecosystem maintains and replenishes the economic subsystem must be ecologically sustainable.&#8221;</p>
<p>So in your &#8220;Sell trees. Make Pulp. Make dollar bills&#8221; argument, you fail to understand the boundary between extraction and replenishment. Exploiting a finite resource, and relying economically on that exploitation, will inevitably lead to an unsustainable economy. Unless you are a nihilist, this is not a viable option.</p>
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		<title>By: Ev</title>
		<link>http://www.triplepundit.com/2009/04/imperial-death-march-assigning-value-to-ecosystems/comment-page-1/#comment-9243</link>
		<dc:creator>Ev</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 10:13:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.triplepundit.com/wordpress/2009/04/imperial-death-march-assigning-value-to-ecosystems/#comment-9243</guid>
		<description>Is it fair to say that economic imperialism is  defined as economic dominance?  The US Dollar is the most powerful currency in the world.  But, the author assumes that there is something wrong with assigning a dollar/value to a tree, and that it has anything to do with economic imperialism.  Fact is, like it or not, trees are in fact bought and sold as commodities.  Trees are ripped out and sold and trees are planted.  The trees that are ripped out and sold have a value.  Trees that are planted have a future value.  Sure, it&#039;s impossible to say if it&#039;s an equitable formula at this time, but --- so what?
Author&#039;s argument:
it can not be known who suffers and how much (financially) they suffer until it has already happened.
Huh??
Is the author assuming that it is a constant negative value to the ecosystem to sell trees?
What if there were a unique species of insect that lived in a region that in a relatively short period of time would ravish and destroy and kill trees, and by selling the trees before this could happen was a net positive effect.
Sell trees.  Make pulp.  Make dollar bills.  There&#039;s a direct value you can calculate.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is it fair to say that economic imperialism is  defined as economic dominance?  The US Dollar is the most powerful currency in the world.  But, the author assumes that there is something wrong with assigning a dollar/value to a tree, and that it has anything to do with economic imperialism.  Fact is, like it or not, trees are in fact bought and sold as commodities.  Trees are ripped out and sold and trees are planted.  The trees that are ripped out and sold have a value.  Trees that are planted have a future value.  Sure, it&#8217;s impossible to say if it&#8217;s an equitable formula at this time, but &#8212; so what?<br />
Author&#8217;s argument:<br />
it can not be known who suffers and how much (financially) they suffer until it has already happened.<br />
Huh??<br />
Is the author assuming that it is a constant negative value to the ecosystem to sell trees?<br />
What if there were a unique species of insect that lived in a region that in a relatively short period of time would ravish and destroy and kill trees, and by selling the trees before this could happen was a net positive effect.<br />
Sell trees.  Make pulp.  Make dollar bills.  There&#8217;s a direct value you can calculate.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Shires</title>
		<link>http://www.triplepundit.com/2009/04/imperial-death-march-assigning-value-to-ecosystems/comment-page-1/#comment-9242</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Shires</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:12:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.triplepundit.com/wordpress/2009/04/imperial-death-march-assigning-value-to-ecosystems/#comment-9242</guid>
		<description>How exactly do you define &quot;economic imperialism&quot; ?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How exactly do you define &#8220;economic imperialism&#8221; ?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.triplepundit.com/2009/04/imperial-death-march-assigning-value-to-ecosystems/comment-page-1/#comment-9241</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:49:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Doesn&#039;t the same analysis also apply to the future economic value of the utilization/exploitation of ecosystems?  You treat the difficulty of pricing negative externalities, but the same analysis should also apply to the benefits side.  You could just as easily have said &quot;it can not be known who [benefits] and how much (financially) they [gain] until it [i.e., economic growth through careful utilization of resources] has already happened. The inherent flaw in this theory makes it impossible to [wisely exploit resources and better the human condition through economic growth] because the true economic [benefit] of [resource use] is unpredictable and speculatively immeasurable.&quot;
In other words, we don&#039;t know either the upsides or downsides.  Doesn&#039;t mean that we shouldn&#039;t make our best guess, right?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doesn&#8217;t the same analysis also apply to the future economic value of the utilization/exploitation of ecosystems?  You treat the difficulty of pricing negative externalities, but the same analysis should also apply to the benefits side.  You could just as easily have said &#8220;it can not be known who [benefits] and how much (financially) they [gain] until it [i.e., economic growth through careful utilization of resources] has already happened. The inherent flaw in this theory makes it impossible to [wisely exploit resources and better the human condition through economic growth] because the true economic [benefit] of [resource use] is unpredictable and speculatively immeasurable.&#8221;<br />
In other words, we don&#8217;t know either the upsides or downsides.  Doesn&#8217;t mean that we shouldn&#8217;t make our best guess, right?</p>
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