Comments on: Taking Cues from Birds to Green the Airline Industry http://www.triplepundit.com/2009/08/taking-cues-from-birds-to-green-the-airline-industry/ Business, Better. Since 2005 Fri, 10 Feb 2012 07:33:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Johnhttp://www.triplepundit.com/2009/08/taking-cues-from-birds-to-green-the-airline-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-40520 John Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:49:02 +0000 http://www.triplepundit.com/?p=10094#comment-40520 A lot of the problems you brought up aren't that relevant. You're assuming all the planes have to be in formation all the time. If there's a storm or something let them go by themselves.<br><br>Also the wake from one commercial jet will not crash a plane behind it. Even the autopilot could handle that. A lot of the problems you brought up aren't that relevant. You're assuming all the planes have to be in formation all the time. If there's a storm or something let them go by themselves.

Also the wake from one commercial jet will not crash a plane behind it. Even the autopilot could handle that.

]]> By: Johnhttp://www.triplepundit.com/2009/08/taking-cues-from-birds-to-green-the-airline-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-24535 John Thu, 11 Feb 2010 00:49:02 +0000 http://www.triplepundit.com/?p=10094#comment-24535 A lot of the problems you brought up aren't that relevant. You're assuming all the planes have to be in formation all the time. If there's a storm or something let them go by themselves.<br><br>Also the wake from one commercial jet will not crash a plane behind it. Even the autopilot could handle that. A lot of the problems you brought up aren't that relevant. You're assuming all the planes have to be in formation all the time. If there's a storm or something let them go by themselves.

Also the wake from one commercial jet will not crash a plane behind it. Even the autopilot could handle that.

]]> By: Lisahttp://www.triplepundit.com/2009/08/taking-cues-from-birds-to-green-the-airline-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-17003 Lisa Sun, 20 Sep 2009 02:52:33 +0000 http://www.triplepundit.com/?p=10094#comment-17003 The idea of grouping airplanes is interesting concerning how birds migrate. If these researchers actually spoke with Dr. David Cimprich (An Endangered Bird Field Biologist, from the Nature Conservancy based in Killeen, Texas), they would find out that the birds usually also travel in storms. While working for him for a seasonal period, the Black Capped Vireos arrived from their Mexico wintering grounds in groups after storms. If the storms and wind velocity of such were calculated from weather data, it could also be shown that the airplanes could save a huge amount of fuel through hitching a ride on wind jets like the birds did.First the older birds and males arrived, then the younger birds and females arrived; Possibly due to getting lost or stronger currents earlier in the season (About 2-5 weeks apart). Both arrived after huge storms hit the Killeen area.Maybe airplanes could use the same advantage that ships at sea and birds in the air have used for centuries(?). The idea of grouping airplanes is interesting concerning how birds migrate. If these researchers actually spoke with Dr. David Cimprich (An Endangered Bird Field Biologist, from the Nature Conservancy based in Killeen, Texas), they would find out that the birds usually also travel in storms. While working for him for a seasonal period, the Black Capped Vireos arrived from their Mexico wintering grounds in groups after storms. If the storms and wind velocity of such were calculated from weather data, it could also be shown that the airplanes could save a huge amount of fuel through hitching a ride on wind jets like the birds did.

First the older birds and males arrived, then the younger birds and females arrived; Possibly due to getting lost or stronger currents earlier in the season (About 2-5 weeks apart). Both arrived after huge storms hit the Killeen area.

Maybe airplanes could use the same advantage that ships at sea and birds in the air have used for centuries(?).

]]> By: Jeffery Whttp://www.triplepundit.com/2009/08/taking-cues-from-birds-to-green-the-airline-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-16225 Jeffery W Tue, 01 Sep 2009 23:10:19 +0000 http://www.triplepundit.com/?p=10094#comment-16225 Laser guided cruise control like they have on Mercedes--safety issues solved! Laser guided cruise control like they have on Mercedes–safety issues solved!

]]> By: Reduce: The Impact of Aeroplanes « Eco Lesbo Vegohttp://www.triplepundit.com/2009/08/taking-cues-from-birds-to-green-the-airline-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-15529 Reduce: The Impact of Aeroplanes « Eco Lesbo Vego Wed, 19 Aug 2009 04:56:09 +0000 http://www.triplepundit.com/?p=10094#comment-15529 [...] planes flying in formation. Planes flying in [...] [...] planes flying in formation. Planes flying in [...]

]]> By: Matthew Elveyhttp://www.triplepundit.com/2009/08/taking-cues-from-birds-to-green-the-airline-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-15524 Matthew Elvey Wed, 19 Aug 2009 01:24:05 +0000 http://www.triplepundit.com/?p=10094#comment-15524 This is brilliant and needs a serious investment right away. Airplanes use a surprisingly large percentage of the world's fossil fuel - a single transcontinental trip can double an American's energy footprint. The substantial benefit is and obvious to a physicist who thinks about it for a minute. Sure there are some challenges. But air traffic controllers are using a control system that was designed and built many decades ago and is extremely antiquated; projects to replace it keep failing and in desperate need of replacement. We have systems to control particle accelerators where particles are moving at light speed. We know how to build systems to do this today. Don't think we can't just because your computer crashes periodically. There are important computer systems that can run reliably for decades at a time because they (unlike home and office desktop computers and software) were designed to be reliable. (The Apollo Moon Lander's computer was designed with triple-redundant systems to achieve extreme reliability even given unreliable parts.) The autopilot in a new plane alone is far more reliable than a pilot and copilot team alone. But yes, new technology will lead to Air Traffic Controllers needing to find new (and far less stressful) jobs. On land, there's been a fair bit of work done on having cars drive nose to tail in convoys safely. It's much more practical in the air. And a commercial cross-country flight is already much safer than a cross-country drive. I'd love to work on building these systems. This is brilliant and needs a serious investment right away. Airplanes use a surprisingly large percentage of the world’s fossil fuel – a single transcontinental trip can double an American’s energy footprint. The substantial benefit is and obvious to a physicist who thinks about it for a minute. Sure there are some challenges. But air traffic controllers are using a control system that was designed and built many decades ago and is extremely antiquated; projects to replace it keep failing and in desperate need of replacement. We have systems to control particle accelerators where particles are moving at light speed. We know how to build systems to do this today. Don’t think we can’t just because your computer crashes periodically. There are important computer systems that can run reliably for decades at a time because they (unlike home and office desktop computers and software) were designed to be reliable. (The Apollo Moon Lander’s computer was designed with triple-redundant systems to achieve extreme reliability even given unreliable parts.) The autopilot in a new plane alone is far more reliable than a pilot and copilot team alone.
But yes, new technology will lead to Air Traffic Controllers needing to find new (and far less stressful) jobs. On land, there’s been a fair bit of work done on having cars drive nose to tail in convoys safely. It’s much more practical in the air. And a commercial cross-country flight is already much safer than a cross-country drive. I’d love to work on building these systems.

]]> By: ghhttp://www.triplepundit.com/2009/08/taking-cues-from-birds-to-green-the-airline-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-15441 gh Sun, 16 Aug 2009 04:37:24 +0000 http://www.triplepundit.com/?p=10094#comment-15441 Actually its about 29 seconds for 5 miles at 600 mph 18 seconds for 3 miles. Actually its about 29 seconds for 5 miles at 600 mph 18 seconds for 3 miles.

]]> By: Taking Cues from Birds to Green the Airline Industry | Ethiopian Newshttp://www.triplepundit.com/2009/08/taking-cues-from-birds-to-green-the-airline-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-15385 Taking Cues from Birds to Green the Airline Industry | Ethiopian News Fri, 14 Aug 2009 18:37:30 +0000 http://www.triplepundit.com/?p=10094#comment-15385 [...] By Ashwin Seshagiri | triplepundit.com var infolink_pid = [...] [...] By Ashwin Seshagiri | triplepundit.com var infolink_pid = [...]

]]> By: Andrewhttp://www.triplepundit.com/2009/08/taking-cues-from-birds-to-green-the-airline-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-15344 Andrew Fri, 14 Aug 2009 05:59:21 +0000 http://www.triplepundit.com/?p=10094#comment-15344 Ok to all of you calling me out about how I didn't read the article and was only looking at the picture...well you are all very wrong. First of all to Michael, yes flying like that is called formation flights like what the military uses. However, never will a group of commercial jets ever act as one unit. There would be far less efficiency in the air traffic and do you really think that different companies will be willing to loss money compared to a competitor? If any of you have ever experienced a thing called wake turbulence, it is a nasty little thing. Planes crash because of it or loose total control. Tom, no the idea of "drafting" like what NASCAR cars do to each other and wake turbulence are very different. Wake turbulence is partially caused by the aircraft effecting the trailing airflow but the primary cause is the air moving over the wing, the shape of the wing and wing tip voticies. Also, each air carrier in the world has its own idea about how to deal with unknown problems in the air; weather, emergencies, reroutes ect. Supposed you have a group of only 3 aircraft flying in formation and in there route of flight there is a storm beginning. With a storm comes wind and vertical pressure differences, these are what cause both chop and turbulence. The first plane feels that his/her best course of action is to climb the second plane's idea is to deviate to the right and the third plane feels that slowing down and deviating to the right is the best course of action. If the lead aircraft, aircraft number 1, begins to climb its wake turbulence will be magnified and its effects on the other aircraft would be felt 10 times as much putting the trailing aircraft in serious danger. You then take into account the increased wing surface area that would be effected by the new wake turbulence with the trailing aircraft banking for their turns and once again the effects of the wake turbulence would be increased even more. Another problem what if an emergency happens to an aircraft int he middle of the formation? Would it simple dive out of formation, no it wouldn't the formation would have to break and the time it takes for this to occur can mean the difference for a safe our a horrible outcome to occur. Also, I am not just some guy commenting on this, my job is to control aircraft, I am an air traffic controller. Ok to all of you calling me out about how I didn’t read the article and was only looking at the picture…well you are all very wrong. First of all to Michael, yes flying like that is called formation flights like what the military uses. However, never will a group of commercial jets ever act as one unit. There would be far less efficiency in the air traffic and do you really think that different companies will be willing to loss money compared to a competitor? If any of you have ever experienced a thing called wake turbulence, it is a nasty little thing. Planes crash because of it or loose total control. Tom, no the idea of “drafting” like what NASCAR cars do to each other and wake turbulence are very different. Wake turbulence is partially caused by the aircraft effecting the trailing airflow but the primary cause is the air moving over the wing, the shape of the wing and wing tip voticies. Also, each air carrier in the world has its own idea about how to deal with unknown problems in the air; weather, emergencies, reroutes ect. Supposed you have a group of only 3 aircraft flying in formation and in there route of flight there is a storm beginning. With a storm comes wind and vertical pressure differences, these are what cause both chop and turbulence. The first plane feels that his/her best course of action is to climb the second plane’s idea is to deviate to the right and the third plane feels that slowing down and deviating to the right is the best course of action. If the lead aircraft, aircraft number 1, begins to climb its wake turbulence will be magnified and its effects on the other aircraft would be felt 10 times as much putting the trailing aircraft in serious danger. You then take into account the increased wing surface area that would be effected by the new wake turbulence with the trailing aircraft banking for their turns and once again the effects of the wake turbulence would be increased even more. Another problem what if an emergency happens to an aircraft int he middle of the formation? Would it simple dive out of formation, no it wouldn’t the formation would have to break and the time it takes for this to occur can mean the difference for a safe our a horrible outcome to occur. Also, I am not just some guy commenting on this, my job is to control aircraft, I am an air traffic controller.

]]> By: John VIncenthttp://www.triplepundit.com/2009/08/taking-cues-from-birds-to-green-the-airline-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-15281 John VIncent Wed, 12 Aug 2009 23:45:12 +0000 http://www.triplepundit.com/?p=10094#comment-15281 Wingtip vortices don't dictate instantly. I have been tossed around in a light plane minutes 5 after a 757 landed. At 600 MPH, that s less than 5 minutes.... Wingtip vortices don’t dictate instantly. I have been tossed around in a light plane minutes 5 after a 757 landed. At 600 MPH, that s less than 5 minutes….

]]> By: Ashwin Seshagirihttp://www.triplepundit.com/2009/08/taking-cues-from-birds-to-green-the-airline-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-15272 Ashwin Seshagiri Wed, 12 Aug 2009 19:18:49 +0000 http://www.triplepundit.com/?p=10094#comment-15272 That's a great point though, especially with all the accidents that have happened this summer. If AA587 crashed due to pilot error, the chances of accidents only increase when you start bringing in multiple planes into the fold. I believe the researchers account for plane separation when they drop elevation as they near their destinations, but there's still a good amount of coordination that needs to happen (and unfortunately—seemingly—a significant amount of opportunity for more pilot error). That’s a great point though, especially with all the accidents that have happened this summer. If AA587 crashed due to pilot error, the chances of accidents only increase when you start bringing in multiple planes into the fold. I believe the researchers account for plane separation when they drop elevation as they near their destinations, but there’s still a good amount of coordination that needs to happen (and unfortunately—seemingly—a significant amount of opportunity for more pilot error).

]]> By: Nick Asterhttp://www.triplepundit.com/2009/08/taking-cues-from-birds-to-green-the-airline-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-15264 Nick Aster Wed, 12 Aug 2009 16:40:03 +0000 http://www.triplepundit.com/?p=10094#comment-15264 I like the concept, but Connor is probably correct. The first plane acts as the lead anyway for any number of planes, then they can switch places, evening it out. I like the concept, but Connor is probably correct. The first plane acts as the lead anyway for any number of planes, then they can switch places, evening it out.

]]> By: Tom Schuenemanhttp://www.triplepundit.com/2009/08/taking-cues-from-birds-to-green-the-airline-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-15260 Tom Schueneman Wed, 12 Aug 2009 14:51:09 +0000 http://www.triplepundit.com/?p=10094#comment-15260 Regarding "wake turbulence", isn't wake turbulence, or the effect the airplane has on its trailing airflow, the premise upon which this whole concept is based? Regarding “wake turbulence”, isn’t wake turbulence, or the effect the airplane has on its trailing airflow, the premise upon which this whole concept is based?

]]> By: Jaybird2005http://www.triplepundit.com/2009/08/taking-cues-from-birds-to-green-the-airline-industry/comment-page-1/#comment-15259 Jaybird2005 Wed, 12 Aug 2009 14:51:04 +0000 http://www.triplepundit.com/?p=10094#comment-15259 If the space between planes could be 5 miles then the drone might be able assist 9 or more planes (each 5 mi apart?) and could save fuel. (9 times 12 would be 108% savings and only 100% spent on the drone.) I would like to see the data. If the space between planes could be 5 miles then the drone might be able assist 9 or more planes (each 5 mi apart?) and could save fuel. (9 times 12 would be 108% savings and only 100% spent on the drone.)
I would like to see the data.

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