If In-N-Out Can Pay (a Lot) More Than Minimum Wage, Why Can’t McDonald’s?

In-N-OutHere’s an interesting point about corporate social responsibility: Major companies can choose to lead the charge, or if they neglect to do so for too long, the democratic process may step in and do so for them on terms the companies may not particularly like. Right or wrong, this is the situation faced by many low-wage employers in the U.S. following President Barack Obama’s call to raise the minimum wage.

There are, however, examples of fast food and retail companies out there that strive to pay a fair wage. And they show that companies can indeed pay more and do well. In-N-Out Burger, a fast food chain in California and the Southwest, starts its employees off at a wage of $10.50 an hour. Moo Cluck Moo, a small fast food chain based in Canton, Mich., starts employees out at $12 an hour and ratchets up the pay to $15 an hour after 60 days. So what about McDonald’s? Or Burger King? Or Long John Silver’s for that matter?

Labor Secretary Thomas Perez makes a good point. If In-N-Out Burger can do it–remain profitable and still provide what has arguably been deemed a superior product–why can’t McDonald’s? Say’s Perez, “I find it a remarkable notion that McDonald’s can’t afford to pay an increase in the minimum wage but In-N-Out Burger can.”

I contacted the McDonald’s media department about this issue a couple times, but unfortunately got no response.

In January, during the State of the Union Address, President Obama asked to raise the minimum wage to $10.10 per hour, saying: “Today the federal minimum wage is worth about 20 percent less than it was when Ronald Reagan first stood here. And Tom Harkin and George Miller have a bill to fix that by lifting the minimum wage to $10.10.”

Since then Labor Secretary Perez has been touring the nation, campaign-style, making the president’s case and raising support for an increase in the minimum wage. He’s been visiting places like an ACE Hardware store in the Washington, D.C. area where associates make $13 per hour, which is about $5 more per hour than the D.C. minimum wage. There’s plenty of precedent for a higher wage coupled with success.

So here’s where it gets complicated. The Congressional Budget Office recently released its report on the effects of an increased minimum wage. The good news is, about a million people will be lifted out of poverty and 16.5 million low-wage Americans would see their household incomes increase. The bad news is, half a million low-wage earners could lose their jobs. Basically, a lot of people will see their household incomes rise by a lot, while a smaller number of households will see their incomes fall. This falls in line with what Brian Parker, co-founder of the restaurant Moo Cluck Moo has to say: “Instead of having a dozen people standing around during downtime, we have three or four. And during that time they are cleaning and prepping food…We have designed our restaurants to run efficiently and pay people more.”

Mr. Parker, while paying his employees almost twice the minimum wage, also points out that he’d prefer for the government not to mandate a higher minimum wage. Perhaps if there were more companies like Mr. Parker’s, the government wouldn’t have to.

Image Credit:  jbcurio: Source

Eric Justian

Eric Justian is a professional writer living near the natural sugar sand beaches and singing sand dunes of Lake Michigan in Muskegon, Michigan. When he's not wrangling his kids or tapping at his computer, he likes to putter in his garden, catch king salmon from the Big Lake, or go pan fishing with his boys.As a successful blogger his main focus has been energy, Great Lakes issues and local food.Eric is a founding member of the West Michgian Jobs Group, a non-profit organization that evolved from a Facebook page called Yest to West Michigan Wind Power which now has over 8000 followers. West Michigan Jobs Group promotes independent businesses and sustainable industries in the West Michigan area. As the Executive Director of that organization he has advocated renewable energy as both a clean energy alternative for Michigan and a new industry with which to diversify our economy and spark Michigan innovation and jobs.

486 responses

    1. In the case of Franchised Fast Food Places, I hope you enjoy paying significantly higher prices if the $15 minimum wage actually comes to pass.

      Ready for a Whopper with Cheese Combo to cost 8-10 dollars?

      1. then nobody would buy a burger and mcdonalds would go out of business.. you think they would let tha happen

        1. obviously beo you’ve never taken a business course. keep at your ignorance its working for you. If you think twice youll be the genius in your family.

        2. If businesses could charge whatever they want and still have paying customers, we’d all be broke and we’d be paying 200+ dollars for a burger.

        3. What part of the country do you live in, combo prices are 7.XX with tax. People will still pay it!! They do it now!

        4. And at that, they can pay an average of $9.00 and hour. How much will be when revenues have to increase? (Triple, if you do the math right) The bulk of McDonald’s sales is kids meals and the dollar menu. The $7.00 combo is for a half pound of beef on a bacon cheese burger. You gonna take all your neighborhood kids out for $7.00 a piece?

        5. No, they wont. They’ll cut their staff in half instead. How’s that $0.00 salary gonna help raise a kid??

        6. based on the ft its a step up from cat food Yes we all should stop giving our money to McDonalds until they treat workers fairly

      2. That and/or be prepared to be your own cashier as they automate the ordering and paying process. Chili’s already has tablets on their tables so you can order your own drinks, and some of the food items. You also pay with the tablet as well.

        1. Tablets like that are effectively a 10-20% discount since there’s no “waitress” to tip at the end! Sounds good to me… But in the end, this means FEWER JOBS. Is that what you REALLY want? You can laugh at that all you want, but that is exactly what higher wages will bring – more automation and fewer jobs.

        2. Do you truly believe that they won’t automate anyway just to save money. Corporate America is always looking to “cut” something and needs no excuse to do so!

        3. So? What’s your point? Does “corporate America” exist to provide jobs? Or to provide a service/product? Grow up.

        4. Given that reasoning, why don’t we lower the minimum wage to .50 cents a hour, wow ! Just think of the Jobs that will create!!!!! ? your logic is flawed in my oppenion

        5. Lower it to 50 cents an hour and no one would work, why should they. I could make more money panhandling on the street.

          That is an even more idiotic idea than raising the wage.

        6. that is my point, never raising the minimum wage to account for inflation is idiotic, if the only reason not to is based on an assumption that to raise it in accordance with the devaluation of the dollar and inflation would raise prices and cut Jobs Both are idiotic, an economy is like a echo system if the ocean retains all the water from where does the plant life get its moisture? money must circulate or it becomes worthless, a few cannot have it all or no one can buy your products {Henry Ford}

        7. I disagree. Perhaps that is whey so many choose to be on public entitlements. I chose to retire early because I take home almost as much for doing nothing as I did working for some sleezy company that couldn’t care less about their employees.

        8. And your opinion is as good as your spelling. Yes, at .50 an hour, you would have a hell of a lot more first time workers getting their foot in the door and gaining experience they can take to bigger and better paying jobs. Sorry, but just because you say the cheapest you can hire someone at is $15.00… doesn’t mean everybody is WORTH $15.00…
          You know there was even a time when there was no minimum wage… back when people actually pulled themselves out of poverty…

        9. LMAO you talk like 15.00 dollars an hr is some great wage, I am a Machine shop owner and my porters make more than that, and your opinion is worthless to me, your either a paid Hack or, a brain washed Moran, who sits a table like a dog begging for crumbs from a turd owner or corporate, thug who’s only real skill is keeping the most amount on profits in his masters pocket , we are heading Back to the days of labor barons, Like 1890s and your bought like a whore, LOMA a cheap whore

        10. You’re a machine shop owner? Bully for you!!! So what? Does that make your opinion more valid that Pimps? Good for you in what you pay your porters. It’s a CHOICE you make as a business owner. Choice is important, isn’t it?

        11. Yes choice is very important, that’s why fascism is so bad, it gives the elite the only ones with choice, the first thing to destroy is any oppositional power such as organized labor, then instilling a false since of nationalism, throwing the flag up every where, increasing war mfg, and spending on weapons, and then flaunting those weapons, next race supremacy , giving the elite a false since of reasoning behind these motives, Greed, All the while Hiding behind a false Christianity claiming God endorses those qualities, and if anyone is not greedy, its because they are week, that’s how I for one know when there a liar and know there true intent for others, because Christianity is not politically centered or financially centered its Christ centered. all these so called free trade agreements are not nationally orchestrated there corporately orchestrated , in order to buy slave wage, and destroy the power of the working class here in America, Hitler and the Na/zi were not socialists, they Just ran on that ticket, Marx was a Yew as well as Stalin and Lennon, Hitler’s Idol in theology was Mussolini, do you really think Hitler would Have idolized the theology of a Yew? who was Hitler’s ally? Italy, and now that’s same Ideology my father fought against is raising its head here, every since tricky D Nixon, who Eisenhower worried about when he warned to beware of the industrial war complex.

        12. A $0.50 an hour minimum wage would likely lead to increased jobs. Contrary to how many people interpret that, though, the pay scale for most jobs would remain unchanged since the labor rate is set by the market (labor supply versus labor skills demanded). In-N-Out Burger pays a higher, efficiency wage than McDonald’s likely for a few reasons: they have higher margins, require more skill from their workers and, along with that, need lower turn-over to operate well. There’s no argument here that entirely free markets work for all but price floors (i.e. minimum wage) and price ceilings (i.e. maximum allowable price) also distort market and individual behavior.

        13. You are being tongue in cheek, but there’s something to what you say. Instead of “forcing” $.50, why not let the market decide what your labor is worth?

        14. I have been at Chili’s and used the tablets and the waitress STILL gets tipped because she brings you the food, drinks, etc. Even though you can order and pay yourself.

        15. Bull, France has a high minimum wage and kiosks to order. People only use them when there is a line. McDonalds tries to automate and they go out of business.

        16. France is a socialist nation…free market here in the US will determine automation…not opinions about other nations employment practices.

        17. We were in an Applebees the other day, and they are getting that table screen display as well.
          Funny, when Microsoft first unveiled “Surface” this was one of the first uses that they envisioned for it. It’s about time.

      3. Funny if Meat go’s up McD’s will raise the price and you don’t mind paying. With the amount of sales at a Bk. or McD’s a Burger would go up .10 to.15 cents if that will break you you need a new Job. I make over $20.00 and would not mind paying a little more so People can live.

        1. Can you tell me how many people actually live at minimum wage? Do you know how many of those people move well past minimum wage within a few years, as their skills and experience increase? Can you cite the number of people still making minimum wage after 10, or 20 years in the workforce?

          That fact is, an arbitrary increase in the cost of [unskilled] labor WILL decrease the demand for that labor. That will actually harm more of these entry level workers, due to fewer jobs, than it will help. The reality is that most businesses will hire new employees at, or near the “livable” wage for their locale.

        2. You clearly have no clue what you’re talking about. A bs study showed the cost would figure to 68 cents for $15, meaning $10.10 would cost them at least 25 cents…….a discredited study performed by an undergrad claiming to be a researcher.

          A little legwork by Huff Post showed the “study” estimated 17% of revenues went to labor, WRONG. That number is closer to 33%. A 40% hike in wages would double the garbage estimates originally made by a fraud. These numbers mandate a doubling of the estimated costs of the increase.

          Thus 68 cents becomes 1.36 per meal….Moving the average cost of a meal to about $7.50….and this doesn’t even necessarily figure the added tax liability of paying higher wages, as employers pay half of the social security tax among other things.

        3. Hold on there friend. You didn’t just cite Huffington post did you? That’s a liberal rag. It’s nothing more than Fox’s opposite number/mirror image.

        4. OK WHO CARES LIBERAL OR CONSERVATIVE! THE TRUTH IS THIS IS NOT JUST FAST FOOD WORKERS. The minimum wage should be raised but not to $15. We as Americans created this mess by falling for convenience over substance. To rebuild the economy and necessary class structures we must stop buying foreign product, we must demand American made. Go back to making our own meals so that farm growth comes back and understand that these jobs are meant to be stepping stones on a life path to more skilled positions. Whether or not Mcdonald can or will pay higher wages is not the issue everyone who calls themselves an American should be worried about.
          We must worry about teaching our children values, work ethic and patriotism along with honesty and integrity so their futures are better.
          Everyone here should think about the true problem and work to find a true solution.

        5. Americans make shit. Just look at the United Autoworkers. You can satisfy yourself that they make nothing but shit by examination of the longevity statistics for the shit they build. So why should I buy a product that is more expensive and under performs for no other reason than it was made in America? As for your service… BFD. I too served, put myself through college (and grad school) and got advanced degrees in both Physics and Mathematics. So…. your military service is irrelevant. Do you know anything about tractors? If so… please explain why I should buy John Deer instead of Mahindra. Then you will begin to understand the “true problem”. And in case you need it spelled out for you… the “true problem” is “compete or perish”. And you don’t fix that problem by whining.

        6. I love jarheads. As a former Coastie allow me to say that you guys are the most hard core mutherf******s I’ve ever known and I’m sure glad we have you. Thank you for your service sir.

        7. The purpose of selecting Huff Post was to show that even the liberal arm of the media has accepted that those numbers are garbage. I read and quote from any media I can access, provided sources are reliable….When liberal media admits a liberal argument is false, you not it must be irrefutably false.

        8. Go ahead & pay more. Why don’t you give half your paycheck to minimum wage workers so they can afford things, since you’re being so generous? Other McDonald’s customers cannot & will eat elsewhere.

        9. Funny how In 7 Out Burgers can pay 12 7 15$ an hr and make a Profit but Micky D’s Can’t. Thanks Christian A/H on the English Lesson.

        10. If the people that worked would get a simple order right It would be amazing. When you order a plain hamburger why do they ask if I want cheese? I said a plain HAMBURGER. You know meat and a bun. Do you want anything on it? This is why $15.00 an hour is stupid. There are people that have been working in grocery stores that will never make $15.00 an hour. They are union people.

        11. A little more? Try double. You’ll feel it when you’re the one trying to feed a family of 5. But that’s not even the problem. You’re not going to feel this at the counter. If you do the math, the average franchise only profits about 10% of sales, so about $230k a year. With an average of 50 employees per McDonalds location, $15.00 means having to find an extra $480k a year. So every single location is going to have to essentially TRIPLE their revenues to make $15.00 minimum work.
          Price increases won’t fix that. Simple economics: Price goes up, demand goes down. Many locations will simply go out of business. (ie, no jobs. AKA $0.00 salaries)

        12. You know my first burger at McD’s .15 cents they have made it through every Min. Wage Hike since then and guess what they Will Make it Through the Next one also.

      4. I guess you didn’t read the article. In N Out does it and their burgers are not 8-10 dollars. Why do you guys constantly defend corporations that pretty much rape their employees?

        1. This falls in line with what Brian Parker, co-founder of the restaurant Moo Cluck Moo has to say: “Instead of having a dozen people standing around during downtime, we have three or four. And during that time they are cleaning and prepping food…We have designed our restaurants to run efficiently and pay people more.” So, you have fewer employees making more money. What happens to the folks that don’t make the cut?

        2. no, you are wrong! in and out is NOT more expensive than McDonalds (a Double Double by itself is $3.72- a Big Mac is $3.99) !!!

        3. Het Pimple McDonalds Corp makes billions a dollars a year in profits you make it seem like they are barely getting by..Look at what they pay their executives

        4. I guess youve never been to in-n-out. There is a huge difference in the quality of employees. In-n-out would not hire the folks McDonalds hires.
          If you think I am lying then you have never been to an in-n-out.

          If Mcdonalds had the same hiring practices as in-n-out, they would never “axe” you if you want fries with that.

        5. @james… well, if in and out can do it, and be a much smaller chain with less revenue than mcd’s, then mcd’s can well afford to pay a higher wage

        6. Something tells me that you’re a stay at home wife with a husband who makes well above the average middle class income. That’s they only way you could possibly think lower income people can NOT take these jobs.

        7. Wrong again; 51 not married; have 2 jobs to pay my own mortgage; been at my day job for 24 years and make $45,000 (not a whole lot to still lucky to have steady job);…all the bills that go with the house, car, ins. oil, gas, phone, cable, mortgage $1150….I do it all myself on my high school diploma and work ethic – 2 jobs is a must right now. Other people should try it. Women shouldn’t make themselves victims and depend on themselves and not husbands or sugar daddys etc.

        8. Something tells me beo that you are assuming…there are relatively few stay at home wives anymore unless you count the welfare Moms who deliberately have more kids for more $ – I was dirt poor! Period – What people on welfare have today is rich compared to how I lived. But, I did my best to figure out how not to be dirt poor. And I didn’t do it by staying home, and I didn’t do it by walking with my pants dragging down under my butt. and yes, my first job was minimum wage. And before that, I figured out how to make $ at home by working – raking leaves, mowing grass, washing windows. I looked to myself fo r improvement – not demanded where I work pay me more!

        9. You are talking about franchisees that make up 85% of the fast food setup McD’s, Wendy’s and burger King. These are not corporate stores and do not have the support or the revenues to increases such as that. Many of these are working hour to hour to manage payroll so as to not lose money.

        10. As I posted above, beowolfe, if you read the whole article you will see that In-and-Out has 1/4 of the employees that McDonalds has. So, for there to be such a big increase would cost 3/4 of the people working their jobs. Wake up and smell the coffee.

        11. First off 60% MacDonalds and Burger Kings are not corporate owned but franchised to individuals. Corporate has nothing ot with the pay at these privately owned franchises. and if you did your homework you would find out that an individually owned strore after paying franchise fees, and all costs including labor the owner on average makes less $60K Look it up! So your point is moot. Secondly it causes disparity between skilled labor and non skilled labor. Why should a burger flipper make the same as a first responder? Escambia county in Fl is hiring FF Emts for $14hr. They have to go to school and get certified? It has nothing to do with profits, but pay for what the job is worth. So now we will have entry level collage graduate jobs making the same or a little less than a worker in a fast food chain! Hence the pay disparity!

        12. You’re just making chit up…..

          The average sales volume per McDonalds Franchise in 2008 was $2.3 million per year, per the 2009 McDonalds FDD Franchise Disclosure Document. The highest performer in 2008 was 9.5 million. The lowest had sales of $491,000. Average profit margin per Franchise runs about 10% of sales per Mr. Franchise of Franchise Foundations, a Professional Corp. see http://www.franchisefoundations.com/mcdonaldsfranchise.html

        13. That’s sales, and you documented the lowest and the highest now give me the actual average then subtract costs ( franchise fees, labor, building taxes, business tax, sales tax, medicare payments, social security payments, labor, cost of goods and inventory, utilities, etc)You need a lesson in business. So as I said average net for a one store owner is around $60K.
          Now run off and before you post understand the entire picture!

        14. That’s sales, and you documented the lowest and the highest now give me the actual average then subtract costs ( franchise fees, labor, building taxes, business tax, sales tax, medicare payments, social security payments, labor, cost of goods and inventory, utilities, etc) Then you have the mortgage a new McDonalds franchise, depending on the model selected, can range from a low of $172,425 to a high of $1.9 million.
          You need a lesson in business.
          So as I said average net for a one store owner is around $60K.
          Now run off and before you post understand the entire picture!

        15. and with an average 50 employees per location, at 30 hours a week, a $6.00 an hour increase would mean each location would have to find another $468,000 a year… double their profit.
          BTW.. McDonalds corp is not who pays these people. 80% of them (from your source) are franchises. Small business owners with 1 or 2 locations. Not the EeEeEevil “rapist” corporation who gave all those people a chance to own their own successful business.

        16. Nobody is holding a gun to their head there Mr. Fake Ass Malcom X. If they are not making the money they wish then they should find a different job. For decades those fast food jobs were for high school kids during the summer or maybe for the first few years after high school while attending college or not going to college. The raping going on is by the state and federal government playing the race card and trying to force privately owned companies to do their bidding. These jobs were not meant for long term and be expected to pay for a house, car and burping out multiple kids. Next thing you know they will demand that fast food joints have some sort of profit sharing and a retirement plan. I am sure you would love that since you sound like some low life so called community activist. Maybe you can run on that platform.

        17. I think we should just continue until CEO’s make. 1000 times what their employees make. That’s what it will take for idiots like you to realize that they can only buy so many Bentleys or Rolex watches and the middle class will be completely gone. The country has always been in better shape when everyone that works shares the wealth. Quit bitching about the nigger in the White House. The elections are over!

        18. So do you advocate for the elderly on Social Security to get a pay raise also? I personally believe that the whole minimum wage argument should pertain to the Seniors also.

        19. Just a tid bid of info, MCdonald’s does have profit sharing for vested employees(working there for longer than X years) but simply raising minimum wage would cut into their profit and thats why they are so reluctant

        20. A large number of people that are on government assistance don’t need to be. If the make 15.00 then that person needs to be reported to the government to remove them from the assistance program.

        21. Different business model pimpdalyrical is correct for the economically challenged who sound off without knowledge.

        22. Cuz people insist on cutsie Happy Meals – and Ronald – and balloons, and little toys in their pretty boxes, and playgrounds. And all the advertising. In N Out does not offer that – so yes, it can afford to pay more. And they don’t have too many $1 meals either.

      5. Fewer people would purchase at that rate, and McDonalds would lose business. That opens up room for competition that doesn’t have the giant bureaucracy McDonald’s has.

        McDonalds might also drop their stringent requirements for their supplies which leads to excess waste for nothing but visuals.

        McDonalds has various research departments as well, they have people spending hours perfecting the image of a burger to release to the public.

        Ultimately, it will force McDonalds to get rid of its excess waste.

        Bottom line is, if the prices are too high, people will not purchase…and if they still purchase at that rate, then the market has spoken and its still the correct decision.

        If people do not purchase, we have more room in the market for smaller outlets that can run a competent and competitive business.

        Its a win/win.

        1. Those people will get new jobs, which will be spawned from

          Also, do you realize you are arguing to cut wages with that sentimentality? If we shouldn’t raise the min wage due to fear of job loss then we should lower it instead to create jobs.

          How would you feel about your salary being cut in half tomorrow?

        2. Charles, there you go, every one take a pay cut, cut every one’s in half tomorrow. Every cry baby right wing nut on these forums would have heart failure. Cut their wages, but leave mine alone!

          What jerks!

        3. Too late, the US has been losing good paying jobs since the days of Ron Raygun! It is as if every one thinks that good paying jobs left in the last few years!LOL!

          Sorry when manufacturing took a hit back in the 1980’s, first with the steel mills, then the domino effect, everything else followed.

      6. Exactly, then no one wins and they go out of business and instead of making that $15 per hour, you’re unemployed. Way to go

      7. @daniel… if you took the time to read the article you would not be coming off as clueless, and ignorant

      8. You know Daniel, In-N-Out is a lot cheaper and higher quality than McDonalds. Their fries are crap because they don’t fry twice and cool in between but their hamburgers and shakes blow them away. A double cheeseburger meal in California costs about $4. You are just echoing what corporations tell you, they are making record profits and can afford a muhc higher wage without increasing costs.

        1. They aren’t a national franchise. We do’nt have them in the mid-west, and since they don’t pay Franchise Fees, they are on a different playing field.

      9. How uninformed you are. Per say the minimum wage doubled (this will put it at $14.50) the price of the burger would not double, it wouldn’t even go up by 50%, nor 25%. Labor costs account for ~20% of the costs associated with operating a fast food place such as Burger King or McDonald’s. So with that, let’s do a little math. Let’s say the cost of a Whopper meal is about $6. Taking away the profit, for the sake of simplicity let’s assume the profit is $1 (this is probably low), the cost of that whopper combo is about $5. With labor costs accounting for about 20% of costs, this means the cost of the labor is $1. if the minimum wage doubles, it would add about $1 (or ~16.6%) to the price of your meal not $2-4. Now I will agree that $14.50 or $15 is a little much, but the $10.10 being proposed in congress seems quite fair, and that would amount to about $0.40 (6.6%) added to your meal.

        1. A lot of speculation on your part. Since you don’t actually know what the metrics are. It is already about $7 for that Combo with tax where I live. Fast Food margins are thin, they rely on volume. If you push the wage to $15/hr you will have to significantly have to raise priscs, cut employees and hours, or both.

      10. That’s what it costs already at decent places. You got to firehouse, lennys, jimmy johns, or any number of decent food places and you’re paying that much. Also…most combos are at $7.50 anyway.

      11. Why? IN and Out doesn’t have higher prices. Quite the opposite. I find it amazing their offerings are actually cheaper than the lot.

      12. You are so wrong my friend..these corporation are reaping billions of dollars and paying their fat cat officers untold sums of money Use ur friggin head by the odds that is ur a 99% er and your being ripped off and you dont even know it wake up

        1. I’ve actually run a business, and I’ve never been able to significantly increase my costs without raising prices. Franchises are small businesses. What the corporation makes in profits doesn’t help them much except for advertising.

    2. Business is very honest… unlike the government. You know what your are getting into as an employee or consumer, and have the liberty to choose how you use it…. buy or not… work or not. This all changes when the Government forces its will on the market. It is difficult to see where your liberty is lost but this is in Idea how. Right now you have the choice to work there, or to put them out of business by not spending there. If people “need” these jobs, and we are willing to use Gov. to force the wage up… Are we not then obligated to make sure the job stays open?? What if McDonalds becomes “too big to fail?” Do we then subsidize it as a public “job factory” Now this affects the market at whole, and where you had a choice to put Mcd’s out of business before, now you have no choice, and through your tax dollars you are FORCED to shop there. I bet you didn’t like it when wall street got bailed out… will you feel the same for McD’s??
      Liberty is difficult to preserve. It is robbed little by little under the disguise of good intentions.

      1. Business is honest? LOLLLLLL! Now I have heard everything! LOLLLLLL!

        If it wasn’t for regulations, we all would be in sweat shops, kids 8 years old bringing in the cotton!


        1. Yes.. by that I mean… It is profit oriented, tactics and models aside, we all know what it’s purpose is. I agree you have to watch for the things that you brought up, but in the end you know to expect it. It is less clear in the case of the Government, where you might be told an agency is there to find terrorists, but is actually spying on all your data. Question: Are you saying that in this modern era… not the turn of the century.. you would shop at McDonalds if you knew they were using child labor?? There are many places in this world where you wouldn’t have that choice, and I presented a situation where it could, and has happened here.

          BTW…. the places with the most sweat shops, and kids working, in our modern era, ARE the places with the MOST government control. BTW: I was throwing papers when I was 8 years old, for the mesilla valley chronicle… and have been gainfully employed ever since.

    3. I have a question why is the union so behind the increase in the min wage, you are so blind. look @ the Union contracts the are based on a % above min wage so if the bump up min wage the all government union get a raise or the get to renegotiate there contract. The union could give a rats ass about the employees in Mc Donald’s. I is a payback for immigration. you are fools. also go back to the Clintons year when the economy was booming (because of the Reagan Year) Min wage was 6.50 hr and MCD’S was paying 8-9 an hr just to get help. we do not need a wage increase we need a give economy a real boost wages will follow.

      1. I think the unions are behind it because they are fighting for “$15 plus unionization”….and there you have it.

    4. That’s because you’re a socialist Nick. The money belongs to the company, and they are a business, and businesses are supposed to maximize profit. You can eat somewhere else, and in effect, impose your own self-tax, by paying for those higher wages if you’re not happy with how McDonald’s pays their employees.

        1. Communism what failed, as it always has, to provide for it’s people was modified starting in 1978 (Deng Xiaoping administration) to open certain portions of China to free market (aka Capitalism) practices. Many publicly owned entities were transferred into private hands, the profit motive was encouraged and supported, and largely because they are a disciplined, intelligent, but incredibly poor (thank you, Communism) people they were able to create a huge vacuum where business could operate, and reduce it’s labor costs to next to nothing, relative to operating in the US, Europe, Etc. Any business not relocating there would soon be out of business, so ‘greedy’ businesses had two choices, live or die. Anyhow, there are lots of good books on this, and in the long run, when China becomes a flourishing nation, economically, the people there will be much better off. Meanwhile, or wage rates will continue to decline to reflect the true value of what we deliver on a global market, at global wage prices.

    5. This says a lot about value. It is okay to return more and more money to shareholders, but the people that labour to make that happen are viewed differently in value than……….

  1. But isn’t interesting In and Out Burger paid about 33 percent over minimum wage in the early nineties and now only pays 20 percent over, doesn’t this mean that the current trend is to make you feel like you are getting paid more even if you aren’t.

  2. I no longer eat at McDonolds, and neither should you. The best way to fix this is simply refuse to buy from a company that doesn’t place it’s workers needs as its core value.

    1. I think if as an employee you want more money then maybe your skill set should include more than “would you like an apple pie with that”. Maybe we should raise the minimum raise to 50 bucks an hour and be done with it. Of course this will KILL all the fixed income people that DO NOT benefit from this and of course we would have a 10 dollar menu. I will never understand why people think giving something for nothing will fix anything. Minimum wage goes up prices go up simple as that

      1. Price go up, demand goes down.
        Demand goes down without Prices going down = competition entering the market.

        Economics 101. Had you studied the basics you might not be wondering why people support this.

    2. If you want more than minimum wage, then you need more than a minimum skill set. Its that simple.

        1. Yes, I do. Their skill set is of minimum value to the economy and society as a whole. Anyone just off the street can do their job with just a couple hours of training and be just as proficient.

          Its not like they went to a vocational school for training or went to a four year school to get a BS in burger cooking and fry dropping.

        2. Even still for McDonalds as the ease of training somebody to replace them is minimal. If your “skill” can be replaced in a matter of hours then you are worth very little.

      1. Notice how there are no numbers specified in your sentence?

        Increasing or Decreasing it has no impact on what you just said.

        1. Alright. Lets try it this way.

          When I graduated tech school with an ASSOCIATES DEGREE (a degree that took TWO YEARS OF EDUCATION to earn), I made roughly $15.58/hr ($32,400/yr salary, no overtime).

          Why should someone whose job only requires ~two hours of training on site be worth $15/hr when a person whose job required a minimum of two years of training only gets $15.58/hr?

        2. Because that education you got is worth much more today…..and raising the min wage also means the salary for that position will also go up to retrain the talent. Plus, there is a career path that pays much more later on as an absolute worst case scenario.

          Maybe you should consider getting a refund on it as you don’t seem to be capable of basic contemplation.

        3. I graduated tech school in September 2011. So that roughly $15.58/hr I got (my job was entirely salary) would be worth only $16.50/hr today in 2014. This is not some degree I got a decade or two ago, where the $15.58/hr would be worth substantially more.

          It comes down to this, and this only.

          Should a person working in a job that requires only minimal training make as much as, or more than, a person working in a job that requires a degree that took years of education to earn?

          If I can make ~$16.50/hr right out of a two year long school (and have student loans to pay back) or make $15/hr after sitting in front of a TV for two hours being “trained” – why would I bother with college?

        4. Sounds like you got the short end of the stick. But that is still irrelevant.

          Your career leads you to a higher pay as you gain experience, a min wage job is typically dead end.

          It will also push up your pay as your employer is now competing with min wage jobs to attract talent.

          You are absolutely correct in asking that, why? Because someone at a min wage job will say the same thing, and forgo college. Meaning less people competing for your job.

        5. I didn’t get the short end of the stick. My current job is paying me $23.23/hr with unlimited overtime potential. I made over $80,000 in 2013 and will probably make somewhere in the $70,000 to $75,000 range in 2014. Certainly not bad for a regular working class guy with a two year degree.

          Raising minimum wage also heavily devalues labor. Look at it this way.

          Lets say you work at McDonalds. You began at $7.25/hr, and through hard work (and asking for raises) and you’re at $10.50/hr (which is perfectly realistic – I worked fast food and I know that raises are available and frequent for the harder workers). Well because of these protests, minimum wage just went up to $15/hr.

          Do you think you’ll get $18.25/hr ($15/hr plus the $3.25 in raises you’ve earned), or $15/hr? Most likely, you’ll get $15/hr despite your history of hard work for your boss – the exact same thing the new guy your boss just hired is getting for picking his nose while watching the training DVDs.

          What about others in other fields that weren’t minimum wage, but now are? Like LPNs (Licensed Practical Nurses, essentially an RN without the education) and pharmacy techs? They had to go to a short training program (usually a couple months) and come out licensed to work in those fields, which usually start people in the $10-$12/hr range. Their jobs are now minimum wage jobs at $15/hr – the same money a burger flipper gets.

          And don’t forget most union employees. Most union contracts include a clause that requires an employer matches any increase in minimum wage for their employees. So some union guy getting $20/hr will now be getting $27.75/hr if the minimum wage would go up to $15/hr from $7.25/hr. Which is also why unions are often the most vocal proponents of raising the minimum wage, even though I have never met a union employee who made minimum wage.

        6. -I didn’t get the short end of the stick. –

          So why are you whining?? You are mad people who don’t have much of a future are making decent pay you made starting off at your job?? That’s messed up.

          -Raising minimum wage also heavily devalues labor-

          People educated in the field disagree, you are going to have a hard time convincing people when majority of experts claim otherwise.

          -Do you think you’ll get $18.25/hr ($15/hr plus the $3.25 in raises you’ve earned), or $15/hr?-

          After 5-7 years you can expect some minor raises, unlike the lala land you seem to live in , the real world market place needs time to adjust. And it will, AS IT HAS BEFORE.

          Every single argument you make was made when the min wage was raised to 7.25. And lo and behold society hasn’t been destroyed.

          You seem to have a serious problem dealing with time frames. Those nurses will eventually see an increase in pay, unless the company wants to lose them to dead end jobs…I’ve already stated this and you seemingly ignored that fact.

          What in gods name makes you think an employer is going to keep around a skilled employee when they aren’t paying more than a burger flipper would get? Please answer that before you ignorantly post more dribble.

          Do you even realize that everything you’ve argued has been argued in the past for the prior min wage increases?? How do you rationalize that in your mind?

        7. When minimum wage went up to $7.25/hr, it was only a (I believe) $2/hr increase. That is not a drastic change. That is a moderate and relatively easy change to account for. But these unskilled laborers are pushing for an increase of $7.75/hr to a $15/hr minimum wage. That is MORE THAN DOUBLE the current minimum wage rate.

          Do you seriously though that DOUBLING the minimum wage (and as such drastically increasing the number of minimum wage workers) would not generate any negative impacts on employment and the economy?

        8. Most companies are paying more than that already, so they are in effect seeing a small increase. The ones effected the most are the ones not keeping up with the market and are going out of there way to fight the market trend, which means they should be going out of business or losing market ground to competitors.


          Now stop whining about a subject you don’t have the education to talk about.

          Its bad enough you just demonstrated you aren’t reading what I wrote.

        9. I see you ignored my question, which means either you don’t know what would happen or you know what would happen and saying what would happen would undermine your entire argument.

        10. I answered your question.

          -Do you seriously though that DOUBLING the minimum wage (and as such drastically increasing the number of minimum wage workers) would not generate any negative impacts on employment and the economy?-

          Was answered with

          -The ones effected the most are the ones not keeping up with the market and are going out of there way to fight the market trend, which means they should be going out of business or losing market ground to competitors.-

          Work on that reading comprehension as I just acknowledged some companies would have issues and the market adjustment to inflation is long overdue.

          The long term positive impact (and even short term impact stated by EXPERTS) is much greater than the short term negative impact on the economy.

          With your lack of reading comprehension and lack of reading my posts to actually find out you failed to answer a question of my own makes me wonder if you really are educated.

        11. That was not an answer to my question. That was you dancing around the question. Clearly you have never taken any kind of economics classes, whereas I have taken both macro- and micro-economics in college as a part of earning my degree.

        12. Please explain how stating

          “The ones effected the most are the ones not keeping up with the market and are going out of there way to fight the market trend, which means they should be going out of business or losing market ground to competitors.”

          is not an acknowledgement or confirmation that there will be negative impacts on employment and the economy.

          I have to ask, because what I stated is describing what will happen to those negatively impacted by the wage increase and informing you its market normalization.

          Perhaps if you tried reading what I wrote, you’d understand this. It’d be great if you could actually answer the question I posed to you, you know, make you look less like a hypocrite whereas I am trying to answer yours while you fail to even acknowledge its existence.

        13. Except, Charles, there are so many unemployed people out there that would be willing to do Gordon’s job for less. So, that argument is not working. There is no need to be nasty either. This is a conversation, not a fight.

        14. Actually, that just helps my argument…..because what you are saying is that his job is as dead end as a min wage job if there are so many people competing for it to suppress its wage.

          If anything, you just made the case that his pay should be near the current min wage.

          There is a need to be insulting when the insult is warranted, this is someone fresh out of college apparently, with poor education in basic economics. People talking on subjects they don’t understand and arguing for a side out of sheer ignorance deserve to be ridiculed.

          We have raised the min wage in the past, it hasn’t been a disaster and studies show the overall benefit is good when min wage keeps up with inflation.

          An argument is between two people who actually understand the subject at hand, a fight is when someone in dire need of an education decides to open their mouth.

        15. Because your starting wage should be $30/hr. That’s the point so many are missing.
          The share of co. profits is horribly lopsided.

        16. Sam – It causes disparity between skilled labor and non skilled labor. Why should a burger flipper make the same as a first responder? Escambia county in Fl is hiring FF Emts for $14hr. They have to go to school and get certified? It has nothing to do with profits, but pay for what the job is worth. So now we will have entry level collage graduate jobs making the same or a little less than a worker in a fast food chain! Hence the pay disparity!

        17. How would that be any different than it is right now? If minimum wage is $15/hr and a new graduate of a two year school gets $30/hr compared to minimum wage being $7.25/hr and a new graduate of a two year school getting $15/hr.

          And for the record, increasing minimum wage to $15/hr WOULD NOT get these people off of government assistance for very long. Once cost-of-living caught up (in about 2-3 years), they would be right back on government assistance.

      2. We’d have to universally define “minimum skill set” first though. Look at someone like Tom Brady. Fundamentally, he throws a ball. Occasionally, he also runs a few yards with that ball. He gets paid millions of dollars to do that. In the proverbial ‘big picture’, that’s not a very useful skill, at all. Why isn’t flipping a burger, and bagging fries equally valuable?

        1. Could you go out on a football field and perform as well as, or better than, Tom Brady?

          Could you go into any McDonalds in the world and perform as well as, or better than, whoever is working in the kitchen?

        2. First of all, Ron, they are grossly overpaid, but people are willing to go to a game and watch him very skillfully throw that ball. That is the same as the actors, while they have more “work” to do, they are also grossly overpaid and we still go to the movies. So, that is a bad analogy.

        1. Test technician for a company that builds nuclear power plants. My current hourly rate is $23.23/hr with unlimited overtime potential. In 2013 I made a bit over $80,000 gross. In 2014, I’ll most likely close out the year in the $70,000 to $75,000 gross range.

          This job requires a minimum of a two-year degree AND experience working in the field to get into the position I am in. My degree combined with my time in the US Navy is what got me this job.

    3. Yes, make McDonalds satisfy your desire for Social Engineering at the expense of a number of employees losing their jobs and an $8 Happy Meal, which fewer people would be inclined to buy.

      But hey, as long as you feel good about it……

        1. You are just too naive. Virtually all the food you eat is “engineered” in one way or another, whether it’s from the fertilizer, insecticide, or the actual crop engineering.

    4. Bieber – That is funny. I don’t see McDonalds having any problems getting any employees to work there. If they were truly that underpaid, they wouldn’t have any employees working there. The high school and college kids in our town don’t complain about working there – and enjoy the spending money while they attend school. Their long term goal isn’t for someone to pay them a livable wage without earning it – that is why they are going to school. If you want to EARN a higher wage, then educate yourself or learn a valuable trade or skill that is in demand. This attitude of “entitlement” in this country is killing our nation.

      1. You do understand that the average fast food worker is 28 years old? Not high school and college kids. College is a scam that leaves you $50,000 to $100,000 in debt with the same Walmart or Mcdonalds jobs available at or barely above minimum wage. There aren’t jobs just “lying” around and people are just too “lazy” to go out and get them. You are either incredibly naive to the reality of the job market, especially in rural America, or you live on a fixed income and can ignore that reality. All the jobs that were lost after 2008 were replaced either by machines or part-time minimum wage jobs, while in the meantime colleges jacked up their prices knowing that the gig and money train will soon be up after Americans realize that the jobs they were going to college for no longer exist. Leaving you stuck with debt that you cannot get rid of with even bankruptcy.

        Go USA

        1. Exactly…I’m 26 and my family makes over 100k/yr already as I work in the IT industry and my wife is a teacher.

        2. Guess what? I went to school on a scholarship (got good grades in high school), got an IT degree and am now making 100K… AND… I’m 28…
          If you spend 100K to get a worthless degree like Arts or something similarly useless, then yes, you will wind up working the same minimum wage jobs. If you actually APPLY yourself and get a REAL degree (science, engineering, math, etc.) you will get a good job…
          But even then, jobs don’t just “appear” magically. You have to WORK for them. I worked my butt off to get where I am and I have no pity on anyone who whines and complains that they are 28 and can’t find a real job. Time to grow up kiddies.

        3. I am on the road all day. I hit the drive thru at McD’s often for drinks but I don’t eat the food. I often am inside where I can log on. I watch the folks they hire – I think in many cases I see they are qualified for just what they are doing – Had they, say, learned English or tried at all in high school, NOT covered themselves in TATS, etc they might be able to get a better job. Paying them $15 an hour to encourage them to continue making bad choices in life is pretty stupid. Obviously this doe NOT apply to all, but to all too many.

        4. You do realize that the “average” is because the majority are high school and college kids – offset by elderly, retired folks looking for extra income. My daughter and her husband both graduated college in the past 3 years – with my daughter also attaining her MBA. They worked through college and have no college debt. I did the same thing when I was in college, leaving with no college debt. If all of us can do it, so can others. Also, you don’t get the Walmart or McDonalds jobs if you are attaining and education or skils that are IN DEMAND. It isn’t the rest of the country’s fault, that students pursue degrees in international studies, sociology, underwater basketweaving, etc…. You can get a 2 year technical certificate in mechanical or electrical maintenance, pipefitting, welding, robotics programming, CNC machining and make WAY above minimum wage. Enough of the whining and crying about how pitiful it is to be somebody trying to get a job these days. Get your lazy butt off the couch and educate yourself or learn a skill that is IN DEMAND! If you aren’t willing to do that, you aren’t worth paying more than minimum wage.

        5. The average age of a fast food worker is higher ever since the economy took a dive! Its called survival! So one at that age should be able to increase their skills, fast food is not a career!
          It causes disparity between skilled labor and non skilled labor. Why should a burger flipper make the same as a first responder? Escambia county in Fl is hiring FF Emts for $14hr. They have to go to school and get certified? It has nothing to do with profits, but pay for what the job is worth. So now we will have entry level collage graduate jobs making the same or a little less than a worker in a fast food chain! Hence the pay disparity!

    5. Hey Bieber, tell the whiners that they made a mistake by quitting school or sitting on their asses collecting free money from the government !! If you want to blame someone for what you consider low wages blame Obama ! Because of his ridiculous programs to help these losers the price for everything went up and they along with everyone else have to pay for it ! The wages aren’t too low , the cost for everything is too high !!! Thanks Obammie !!!

    6. That’s your nasty Democrat style tactics…some of us don’t work that way. What, if you don’t agree with us we’ll boycot and make you all lose your jobs says the party of “tolerance”; As long as everyone agrees with you you show tolerance…loll

    7. Good point, however the food is also just terrible. I would rather dumpster dive outside a fancy restaurant than eat McD’s.

  3. It’s all about efficiencies. Running labor costs requires a lot of effort to keep the balance right. As noted, the one business says he has less people but expects more work of them and more than one task – in other words, they have to multitask and the workforce as a result is smaller.

  4. I cannot find much information about Moo Cluck Moo, but it turns out that In-and-Out Burger does not franchise its operations. Every store is a company-run store. Which means the profits of EVERY store are used to pay EVERY employee (including the managers). And considering Moo Cluck Moo is a very small local operation, I’m willing to bet it doesn’t franchise either.

    McDonalds, Burger King and Long John Silvers are predominantly franchise-operations. This means that what a store makes is what that store has to operate with, including labor costs and annual franchise costs (which can be in excess of $200,000 a year).

    It is far easier to pay a higher wage to people when labor costs are spread out across many stores and there is no annual franchise fee.

    1. That’s why the franchise will die. No one will be willing to deal with the negative publicity and tight margins that goes with running a McDonalds.

      1. And what will that do to unemployment if these franchise operations tank in light of increased minimum wage leading to higher prices and fewer customers?

      2. not quite, with the flexibility of the franchise, you will see more automation and less human interaction. Prepare for order kiosk’s ala Sheetz. and automatic cook and prep machines. The end user wants a good tasting meal fast with a low cost. There will be no negative publicity.

      3. TonsofFrank – you sleeping under a rock, the franchise business is on the rise at an expected 2.3% growth!

    2. That’s one of the big problems with this kind of journalism, they don’t do any real investigation past what they want to say.

    3. Gordon – exactly – and the individual franchise stores on average after all costs are paid including labor net an income less than 60K for the owner!

      1. And the initial costs to acquire a franchise operation can be in the millions of dollars.Which most likely means the owner took out a mortgage (or mortgages) and business loans to open that franchise.

        1. Yup: New McDonalds franchise, depending on the model selected, can range from a low of $172,425 to a high of $1.9 million.

      1. Really, and what risk are the employee’s taking. If they want a share of the profits, they need to kick in some up front cash for start up cost.

        1. Exactly, I seriously don’t understand this ongoing debate. Has any critic honestly sat down and crunched the numbers? It’s not feasible for any fast food owner to pay their workers $15hr to flip burgers, drop fries, and serve as a cashier. No business owner is starting a business with a goal of earning $50,000 a year -that’s not worth the time and energy! Mcdonalds is NOT a career job, most of its employees is for part-time workers usually in high school or working as a side job. Mcdonalds was never a career job designed to raise a family and pay a mortgage unless, you’re the manager. If people want better pay, the logical thing to do is find a career paying job or start their own business.

    1. In the 50’s and 60’s you did, actually. Corporations believed in sharing profits. This began with Ronnie Ray-Gun.

  5. Here is a thought, if a government can tell a company how to run its business and how much profit they are allowed to make then this is no longer a capitalist country, but a socialist country, and we know how those forms of government have turned out? Look at the Soviet Union that paid everyone an equal amount so they all lived in shared misery.

    1. And what do we do now? The top tier are super wealthy and the others are left to dry. Dont see how a socialist society is worse than what capitalism makes it out to be. How does the game of monopoly end? 1 person is rich, the rest are dirt poor. How great is that?

        1. Used to have a chance. Liberals do not believe that people can, will, and should fail, or succeed. It ruins the notion of an egalitarian utopia.

      1. Because ANYONE can start their own business and elevate themselves. There are TONS of ways to elevate yourself – you don’t even have to start your own business, just be very good at what you do. I did it one way, my son, who, at the age of 21 is making two or three times what I make, has done very well for himself. But, unlike most of his generation, he knows the value of work and puts in about 60-80 hours a week himself. He has fully funded his 401k for the past 4 years and, by the time he is 30, could easily retire.

    2. Well what we have now really isn’t working out either, the point of societies is working together to make life easier for all humans. If you want to be a true capitalist go live in the wilderness and keep what you hunter and gather but don’t expect help. The super wealthy benefit from society’s practicalities yet just leech off of everyone’s labor giving nothing back. The answer lies somewhere between capitalism and socialism.

    3. Yeah well look at where it’s gotten us? Companies maximizing profit at the expensive of their customers and employees.

  6. What a stupid article….so they pay $10.50 in California! That is like paying $4 per hour in any other state. In California a $100K house costs $750K. Someone earning minimum wage of $10.50 per hour in California is much worse off than someone in the Southeast earning $7.25 per hour. It isn’t simply about the wage, it is about the cost of living. Sure you can earn a higher minimum wage in California, Seattle, Washington DC, Chicago – you just can’t afford to live there.

    1. Its a pretty big difference. I live one state away, and my company pays my same position about $10k more to the employees in California.

      1. But if housing costs 7 times more, the only way it would work out beneficially in California is if they paid 7 times your salary for the same position. California has an exorbitant cost of living, exorbitant housing, job stagnation in the areas that recently raised minimum wage and some of the highest taxes and fees in the nation. If that is your cup of tea, then I’m happy for those people that choose to move there. However, don’t try to enforce these same high costs on the rest of the nation.

  7. Those who can do, those who can NOT become “journalists”. You media dimwits have no clue when it come to the economics of business, big or small.

  8. If your goal is fry guy of the month at Micky D’s then you really need to be culled from the herd anyway. Fast food is not a career but a teenage starter job.

      1. LOW STRESS?!? I worked at McDonald’s for 7 1/2 YEARS as a teenager (age 14 to 21) and I can tell you from experience that this kind of job is FAR from “low stress”! I have been screamed at, thrown things at, threatened, etc. by hungry people getting upset! We have to work super hard in order to get things right and out the door to satisfy the customer! That is what I call stressful!

        1. Well then, Jim, why don’t you explain it to me since you are SUCH an expert on the stresses of life in the real world!

        2. This isn’t a “who’s fish is bigger” conversation…it’s more of I’m tired of people minimizing the work that these people in the fast food and retail industry do in this society and that they deserve a chance to live a better life than they have now! $15 is too much, I agree, but $10.10 I feel is more reasonable!

        3. April, the problem is that many of the people working in the fast food and retail industry minimize the responsibilities of those who are skilled and making higher wages in comparison to their own duties. If anyone walking thru the door can do the job that you’re doing, it’s going to be a low paying job, and you need to realize that you’re not going to support a family working in that position. And if you have children to support, but are still flipping burgers at McDonalds, chances are that your own decisions in life are why you aren’t living a better life.

        4. Wages are based on supply and demand. It doesn’t matter if you think $10.10 is more reasonable.

          If a company offers minimum wage and there are plenty of acceptable applicants, then there is not much of a reason to offer more.

          Those who feel trapped in retail, need to improve their marketable skills. Then they will command a better wage.

        5. A stressful job is one where what you do actually matters and you are under real pressure to perform to a high level. I have never noticed this in any of the minimum wage jobs that I worked as a younger person.

        6. Stress is travelling thu the straights of hormuz with one reactor down for maintenace, having a fire in the emergency diesel generator transformer of the live reactor, effectively losing 90% power to the carrier. Iran then decides to play with you by activating their radar at their sam sites, which line the coast. And the only way to get power to the missle defense systems is to repair the 5000v transformer live in 120 degree temps dripping with sweat.

    1. OK. I guess this needs to be spelled out for you. Do you think everyone is the next Einstein? Do you think everyone has a high IQ? Do you think there aren’t people with special needs, or learning disabilities?

      I’m so sick of hearing this comment.

      Those people deserve fair wages too.

  9. I have never heard of these other 2 companies and it could be because they are not publicly traded like McDonald’s and Long John Silver. As the way a CEO keeps there job is to make share holders happy. What were to happen to a CEO who raises wages but lowers the stock price? Also granted the minimum wage employees may not make that much but there are opportunities to advance.

  10. apples and oranges comparison. might want to learn about franchising vs company owned. heck how about even mentioning it

  11. This is corporate greed at it’s best! Until WE take back our country from corporate America and the politicians that are getting ‘fat’ pockets from them, low minimum wages and corporate greed will continue. Take care of American workers first! We are the backbone of this country.

    1. Hey Angry American , when will misinformed people like you EVER LEARN ? Corporations big or small are employing millions and are out to make a profit ! Investors are their backbone and they want to see BIG profits ! If you call that greed you’re mistaken, it’s simply good business ! It’s not “low minimum ” wage that’s the problem it’s the outdated and ridiculous programs that are raising prices !

    2. If the pay is inadequate, go work somewhere else.

      Quite whining about pay. Your complaints should be about lack of job growth. Fast food joints are not going to pay anything. These jobs are for entry level/high school kids.

    3. Open a restaurant next door, sell better food at a competitive price and pay $15 per hour. That is how you beat the corporate demons. In other words,
      put YOUR money where your mouth is.

    4. Really. Well when you are willing to crack open you bank account and put every thing you own at risk to open a business then you can have a say when it comes to payroll. Until then just be glad some one else took that risk so you can have a job.

  12. I am amazed that the government and all these people think it is thier right to tell a private business what they should pay thier employees. If you think they should get paid $15/hour you should open a McDonalds and do that. Same old whining and moaning but not doing anything about it. The fact is some work is only worth minimum wage and if you are not paid enough get another job and if you can’t then maybe you are only worth minimum wage.

  13. In N Out has much less locations. In N Out is confined to areas of higher cost of living, thus higher wages. In N Out has more franchise locations than McDees.

    Any other idiotic questions?

    1. Yes, I have an idiotic question. You said In N Out has much less (many fewer) locations and also that the they have more franchise locations. How can they have both fewer locations and more locations simultaneously?

  14. Hate to tell you but a job is only worth what someone is willing to take to do it. You accepted the payrate and now cry about it, YOU ACCEPT YOUR PAYRATE,
    McDonald’s didn’t make you take it. Don’t like your pay, quite, and see how long it takes them to fill your job. Be happy you have a job. You must have limited skills or you wouldn’t be want to work for McDonald’s to start with.

  15. Perez also guarantees fast action for illegals who complain about work conditions and pay. It’s against the law to hire illegals yet this guy has a website designed just for them to voice their complaints. This is Obama’s America. By the way, if you don’t like the pay where you are working, quit, find another job, or go to school and learn something other then flipping hamburgers.

  16. Several things missing in this “report”. Two pop immediately to mind. Why is it that they didn’t mention the price of an In and Out burger vs the price of a McDonalds burger? Could it be because their prices are higher? We don’t have any In and Out burgers where I live. Could it be that they are only in areas of the country that can support that kind of pay?

    1. To answer your first question: In N Out burgers are the best. They use real meat, never frozen. Everything they sell is fresh, never frozen, including the french fries. They peel and slice their own fries in-store. And, the hamburgers are cooked to order. Besides, their patties are much thicker than McD’s paper-thin “pink slime”. I too wish they had a store where I now live. And I would gladly pay more for their burgers.

      1. Good for them. But you are also admitting that they aren’t comparable businesses. BTW I usually don’t eat at McDonalds either. When I get a burger I usually go to 5 Guys or Smash burger because I prefer one made fresh. But I don’t pretend it’s for political purposes either. I also take it from your post that there burgers are much more expensive so this really proves my point.

      2. In-n-Out meat patties are the exact same size as a regular McDonald’s burger. You know the kid’s meal size burger.

        In-n-Out charges about double what for the same size burger has a small McDonald’s. In-n-Out may taste better and be fresher but they make small burgers.

  17. Why are we mandating fast food chains increase wages? As you see in this article, the
    companies that pay more, get more effort from their workers and require fewer
    employees. It is a simple tradeoff…. higher wages, greater expectations of
    employees, fewer employees needed. This is economics 101. I suppose you wil be angry if you are one of those lazy employee that receives minimum wage and will be fired when the the minimum is increased to $15. On the other hand, I suppose you will be happy if you are one of those workers that works hard to get ahead and will keep your job…..but let’s get a dose of reality,,,,,hard workers are the ones that don’t need a gov’t mandate to earn a higher salary….. these workers earn the higher salary without a gov’t mandate…..
    novel concept… work hard…. get ahead…feel good about doing it on your
    own….. If we would spend half the amount of money we spend on government regulation and politics to train “willing” and “hard working” employees to improve their skills so they can move onto better paying jobs, America would be a better place.

  18. I’m not an advertising guru, but up until a few years ago, I had to drive over 50 miles if I wanted a McDonalds burger, so I never bought one. I’ve never tasted and In and Out burger and I’ve never seen a TV ad for one. that might be part of the answer.

    Once McDonalds arrived on the scene in my small( tourist supported) town, most of the small mom and pop burger joints, that paid well above fed min, to their neighbors children employees, went out of business. They couldn’t compete with the glitz and lure of the TV screen.

  19. The wage increase fiasco will all be resolved soon….”Baby Boomers” are retiring at alarming rates and not all are going to retire on tropical islands sipping Mia Ti’s-msp…but, will soon wake uo looking at them “Golden Arches” in their “Golden Years”…saying, hey, being table cleaner of the month don’t sound so bad with free fries and a burger each shift and their going to pay me too ! SIGN ME UP !…I’ll take that minimum job that works 4 hours so I won’t be late for my afternoon nap ! ? ( think about it …)

  20. Go for it. I can pouch the buttons on the screen to order what I want and slide a card. I know my drinks are already filled by an automated machine and I just heard they have a new machine that actually grinds the meat and produces a burger with little human help at all. We don’t need employees at all. Then the companies will not have any benefits to pay or unemployment taxes to pay. I say we start today. Let’s just see what happens next.

  21. Please note the dates on the comments here. This article has been circulating for 6-7 months. Yahoo runs out of things to post and digs up an oldie.

  22. It is a different business model. McDonalds used to have a limited menu pretty much the same as In N Out does now. The extended menu requires more labor and McDonalds hires more illegals so they can keep the wages down.

  23. McDonald’s has 1.8 million employees. I doubt In-n-Out has that many. So if you total the payroll’s for each company I would bet McDonald’s is vastly higher.

  24. Here is a thought. If you think $15 or $20 per hour is what a restaurant should pay the employees then by all means pay that. Start a business or buy a franchise and pay it. I mean obviously you can just start a business with nothing more than the desire to do so and obviously you can make plenty of money while paying those wages so just do it. If that’s too much trouble just find a server at your favorite restaurant and match their wages. That’s fair right? At least then you will be spending your own money and not someone else’s.

  25. This is America. Why don’t the ones looking for fifteen dollars an hour go to work for In & Out. Maybe if McDonalds could not find anyone willing to work for less, they would pay more. This is FREE enterprise. When the government steps in and demands what you pay, that is not a free country!

  26. Because IN/OUT charges a lot more for a better product for one thing. The two companies are going after totally different markets is why they offer different products.

  27. Mcdonalds can’t raise prices if taco bell does not, that is the problem. That is why we need to raise the minimum wage so all boats raise to the same level. Corporate profits go up, prices go up, wages stay the same. Republicans blocking the minimum wage is hurting this economy. People have no money to spend.

  28. There’s a big difference between the scope and structure of In N Out Burger versus McDonalds or BK. The biggest one? In N Out are all corporate owned and it is closely held. The latter are franchisees with publicly traded stock. Could McD’s or BK pay more? That’s a question for their investors.

  29. The richest man in the world is from mexico. Why not get rid of all minimum wages, welfare and food stamps and let the market dictate wages. Then we can have 4 year old girls selling chicklets gum, and people living in cardboard houses just like mexico

  30. Same reason My Company Only pays me 24.50 and Hour. Because it’s supply and Demand. They can find people is they wanted for $18.00 and Hour. Same with McDonald’s.

  31. In-and-Out is in business to feed people quality food and make a profit doing it!

    McDonalds is in the business of cheating people and selling pink slime and making every effort possible to lower the quality of the food items until they can NOT possibly go any lower.

    It’s compulsive insanity, from McDonalds senior management!

    “Look, I’m NEVER going to be happy until we are selling the public sewage that has been

    artificially flavored to taste like meat! I don’t wanna hear any more excuses. Get busy on that pile of manure and if you plan to keep working here much longer, then you better figure a way of making it look and taste like a real hanburger!” the crazy screams, as he masturbates into a huge tank filled with french-fry chemicals.

  32. Because they have a different and wiser employer, Maybe you should all go over thr and ask for a job. And us taxpayers are probably paying the difference for them, Another government trick.Help them to force others.

  33. Unless you are in a management program, fast food jobs are a dead end. They are non skilled jobs. If one company want to paid more for their non skilled labor then that is up to them.

    If you want to make more money stop working at dead end jobs. Find a better jobs. You just have to make the effort to find them, they are not going to find you.

    Here is an example of a area that is looking for worker’s. The rail roads are looking for help. Yep you may have to move (on your dime) and it may be hard work, but it’s good pay, and they will train up to move up.

  34. So, the author is arguing that MooCucKMoo and In NOut Burger are the business models that McDonalds should follow.?

  35. Thriving citizens become more productive employees, more willing consumers, and stronger supporters of pro-business policies, struggling citizens are disgruntled at work, frugal at the cash register, and anti-business at the ballot box.

  36. You can lead as a dictator and oppress those that help you or you can lead as a true leader and show your respect for those of whom you supposedly lead. You don’t have to be a leader of a nation to be an oppressive tyrant. Its a personality trait. If they could they would own you as slaves if it would lead to more wealth for themselves. These personality traits did not just go awway. They have been a part of society since the beginning of time and they will always part of society. Its a matter of power and control. Today we are part of a society that enjoys the effects of many movements in a democratic nation that resulted in more human rights. Unfortunately each day that goes on our negativity towards each other erases those years of battles that previous generations have fought. The scary part is even the poverish are seeking to give their oppressors more and more control. Hopefully they don’t gain to much control because we may see the effects of modern day slavery through the art of a credit based system.

  37. In & Out is family owned and does not have to pay shareholders. They can afford to be good to their people.

  38. I do agree that wages are to low, $10.50 to $11.00 dollars an hour would be a good start and an increase after 60 or 90 days would be good for everyone.

  39. Did anyone notice that Mr Parker said instead of having a dozen people standing around we have 3 or 4 cleaning, doing things? That means 8 people making the wages they get for standing around at McDonalds are not working! Way to go.

  40. In the case of In-n-Out, they are family owned and have no shareholders. It would be interesting to see how many fast food chains stock is owned by union pension funds.

  41. Wow how can I put this? WHY SHOULD THEY? The very thought that the GOV should trample the rights of any individuals or corporations because they feel someone should pay better still amazes me. Why not make it so that no company makes more than a million a year in profits. Take the excess money & hand it out to the supposed poor. Isn’t the the very definition of socialism & communism. We all know how those countries end up.

    Yet all we have to do is look at the rich social liberal. Those promoting this social justice of fair & equal. So why not force theses rich liberal to hand over their cash. They have way too much according to the liberal definition of rich demons. Well then it wouldn’t be fair.

    I never met a liberal that didn’t want to use someone else’s money for some hair brained supposedly humanitarian need. But when it came to them doling out the cash, they would decline & plead they were poor.

    While we need to help others in times of need, that doesn’t mean that we’re to be a cash machine for those that would rather sit on the couch & watch TV. All because it’s beneath them to work.

    What these morons can’t seem to get is that raising the minimal wage effects everyone. The mom & pop stores & such will have to pay their employees this new living wage. Sadly we can’t fix liberal stupid.

  42. Actually, it probably can and its CEO has stated that it wants too and the only reason it would do so is to push out the remaining competition. Who wants only McDonalds around?

  43. We need population control. Too many degenerates having children that have no chance to succeed. No economy can support a society where a large (and growing) portion of the population produces nothing.

      1. I thought I told them to cut off your internet access. And you better not have gotten out, I told them to keep an eye on you Dad. And that doesn’t even make sense, I’ve already been born. Please take your medications too ok?

  44. Have you had the food at In-N-Out or experienced the service? It blows McDonald’s away. Additionally, In-N-Out is privately (i.e. family) owned, just like Hobby Lobby. McDonald’s has shareholders. Everyone needs to remember the purpose of a company is to maximize profit for its shareholders. The shareholders are very different in these cases.

  45. Did the guy say that he has 4or 5 employees working versus 10 or 12 standing around? Working employees always earn more as they show the willingness to work. See 6 to 7 employees lost their job.

  46. IN N Out requires more from their employees. You HAVE to have half a year minimum of experience to start, and have to be much more responsible and professional. They pay for a better caliber worker. Anyone that has eaten at an In N Out can attest to this.

  47. I’m so tired of this sort of reporting. McDonalds can pay $15 per hour if they wanted to. In-N-Out pays more so they can attract and retain better employees that is how the free market works. In-N-Out pays better go get a job there. Or Costco is another good example. Most everyone I know started at a minimum wage job and worked their way to better jobs. That is how the system works and you can’t legislate that out. If you raise the price of the minimum level all you will do is raise the cost of everything else so that the end result is unchanged.

  48. I’ve been to both restaurants many times and in my experience the employees at In-n-Out are worth at least 50% more than the usual McDonalds employee.

  49. People have no money to spend because we are being taxed to death and there is no real job growth. Minimum wage will always be the cutoff , the poverty wage

  50. Companies that are not franchised have a totally different business model. WIth a franchise, there are many more owners risking their own money and who want to have a good ROI.

    With that aside, tell me what In-and-Out burger place I can walk into and buy a McDouble (ok – the “equivalent”) for $1.19 or so? What items do they actually have at these prices? Answer – NONE.

    McDonalds offers their meals at prices that are roughly 1/2 to 2/3 of those at these other burger chains. If In-and-Out burger was such a great deal, don’t you think that chain would totally displace the McDonald’s? Why doesn’t it do it? You ALL know the answer – PRICE – McDonald’s is CHEAPER no matter how you slice it, and people in the US – especially the ones with less education – often shop solely on price and not on value.

  51. Then McDonalds would be firing 90 % of the workers. If they are going to be paying better wages they want the better employees. So what this does is turn up the unemployment line. Everybody knows In and Out has better more professional employees. Got to have some jobs for the people that graduate from the school of paperboy or lawnmower up to fast food worker.

  52. Well one huge difference is McDonald’s is a franchise and many of it’s stores are owned by small businesses or individual owners, In & Out I believe is all company owned stores with no franchises.

  53. Corporate “social” responsibility? No such thing. Corporations exist for one purpose: Make a profit for their stock holders. That’s it. They DO NOT exist to ensure you have a living wage. That is YOUR responsibility. How do you ensure that? By getting an education and training in a profession that earns more money.

  54. If people actually believed wages should be higher they would buy their burgers at places like In-and-Out, not McDonald’s.

  55. I was watching a cooking though over the weekend.
    They spoke about how a chef out of culinary school working in a top San Francisco restraunt only makes a little more than $29K a year.
    That’s about $15 an hour.
    If an actual chef in a real restraunt only makes about $15 an hour what makes these people think they deserve the same money for squirting mayo on a bun?

    1. My first job out of tech school with an Associates Degree (that took two years to earn) only paid me roughly $15.58/hr ($32,400/yr salary, no overtime). A burger flipper should NEVER make as much or more than a person with a degree working in their field.

      1. We agree, but ultimately the monetary value of a person’s labor is dictated by supply and demand. The monetary value of a person’s skills is not related to the number of years a person spends in higher education.

  56. That’s why I support In and Out and Costco, cuz they pay their workers good wages, and why I don’t support Mc Donald’s and Walmart who pay their workers garbage but are very profitable.

    1. exactly. These ignorant ghetto bafoons only want more more more without ever actually doing anything for it. They feel for some reason entitled. Idiot greedy no skilled labor doesnt even understand economics either. For example they forget the franchises are barely making it and cannot afford to raise their pay….and for what???? so they can continue at a dead end job?

      People, minimum wage jobs arent there for a career. Flipping burgers should never be what you want to do when you grow up….unless youre a ghetto bafoon, then its either that or crack.

  57. Any company can afford it. The problem is, it’ll take a fraction of their profits away. In today’s society, if a business isn’t making more money every year, its doing something “wrong”.

    1. this is so ignorant I am almost at a loss for words.
      Fact: most fast food places CANNOT afford it. They arent corp MCDonlads or Burger King. They are franchised and arent in the big bucks. In-n-out is corporate and therefore they CAN afford to pay more. There is a catch: they wouldnt ever hire the kind of people MCDonalds or BK hires. The folks at IN-N-Out are expected to be clean, can speak well, and work work work. That alone ruins it for all applicants coming from McDonalds.

  58. Great article. Great point about In and Out. If we want change, we’re going to have to do it ourselves and replace these global greed companies with employee owned and focused replacements.

    1. you obviously have never been to in-n-out. McDonalds HAS to pay minimum wage. They are all franchised and dont make the money of big corporate. Besides……wanting more money just for the sake of surviving is NOT a good reason to pay more money.
      Get a different job if you want more. Get a skill. You made a choice to work minimum wage at a shitty job, not the rest of us….we were ambitious and contributed to society.
      Besides….no mcDonalds employee would be hired by in-n-out….see they dont hire uneducated ghetto bafoons…..McDonalds ONLY hires those folks.

      1. Fuqin idiot. Keep parroting that free market is God bullshit while ignoring reality. The US is 80% service sector economy. Yet you morons on the far right don’t want to pay anyone anything who works in the service sector. Then you idiots wonder why the economy isn’t growing and better jobs aren’t appearing when nobody has any money to spend. You do understand that unless people actually spend money, our economy shrinks, right? So if you ever want to have a middle class again, you’ll start paying people right regardless of skill level. Otherwise, I look forward to hurting you and taking enough of your property to make up for the shortfall in my check. Better buy a gun and build a lot more prisons if you aren’t going to at least marry the minimum wage to inflation.

        1. What a bafoon. You realize there is no god right? Also you havent a clue about economics. Raising non skilled labor only increases the cost of living (refer to history) and then the “raise” is negated. The real solution is to motivate these non skilled people to become ambitious, contribute (for a change) and better themselves. You dont have a clue.

        2. do you realize that the majority of fast food chains are franchised and do not have the money to pay higher wages? No. No you have bought into the lie the unionizers have sold you. Typical uneducated prey. They want your money and allegiance, nothing more.

  59. The problem is, they are probably cutting the hours of people during downtimes to make the place run “efficiently”. That’s no good for adults who need 40 hours a week pay to survive.

  60. No problem with having others follow that model – start off at $10.50/hr, then raise it as time goes on. Starting at $15/hr is neither reasonable nor logical though. However, employees must realize that staff cuts will be necessary in order to sustain this model, so not everyone gets to enjoy this increase. As long as they are willing to toss their name in the hat, and hope for the best (e.g, keeping their job), then go for it.

  61. I get really tired about the denigrating of hard-working employees who fill these “unskilled” jobs. Those who work hard–at any job–perform a service that we all obviously value (witness the number of customers!). Their employers simply do not want to pay for what they receive. Constantly we hear about how these jobs are “meant” for young people who need to gain work experience, as if companies like McDonalds are doing some kind of public service by providing them. If the folks at McDs et al feel that way, then why don’t they stick to hiring teenagers? Here’s why: they PREFER having older employees trying to support their families, because these folks NEED their jobs and are willing to work harder. They want more productivity and reliability in their workforce. They just don’t want to have to PAY for it. During the course of these worker actions, we’ve seen in interviews folks who have worked at McDs and other places for several years, yet they still make between $7.25 and about $8. The fast food/service industry knows that in a shrinking job market (thanks to outsourcing and technology, among other factors), they will always have an underemployed work force to exploit. They don’t HAVE to hire young workers to “give a break” to. They can hold on to older employees who need their job (or two, in most cases) without doing anything to reward their hard work. Furthermore, we also have the issue of an aging workforce in various fields, where older workers–for whom retirement is financially tenuous or for whom the prospect of not working is simply undesirable–fill jobs that ideally a younger work force getting out of college would fill. Even in the professional fields, we see that many “exempt” professionals (“exempt” referring to being exempt from labor laws limiting work hours, among other things!), either by choice or by fear, forego taking vacations and work long hours. Again, if these folks are willing, for whatever reason, to put in 60 and 70 hour work weeks, that is most of all an advantage for the employer, who can therefore hire fewer of these “managers” and professionals. So in the end what we have is an overworked workforce, throughout the workforce spectrum. Did anyone consider, for example, that if workers at the lower end were paid better, they might not work two or three jobs, and so the “job loss” that management likes to threaten and hold us hostage with wouldn’t be as big a factor? Or perhaps if those jobs were necessary and didn’t go away, they might be filled by more workers instead of being filled two and three at a time by the same worker? All of these factors–technology, outsourcing, aging, education, etc.–are factors of a systemic and seismic shift and pressure on our workforce, and it’s time we stop making this a pissing match between those we perceive as “valuable” and those we perceive as expendable, and instead start looking seriously for solutions.

    1. The fact that there is a large pool of unskilled labor is the real issue here. People need skills. Asking private individuals to subsidize people with no skills (wage price floors which equal welfare) is a poor solution for everyone and honestly is unAmerican.

      1. Oh, great. The “un-American” canard. First of all, capitalism, such as it is, is an economic system, and concerns about “wage price floors,” while of intimate concern, no doubt, to businessmen, do not have to be the only or defining factors in the choices our government makes in attending to the needs of its citizens. For Capitalism is NOT our system of government, and we’d all do well to remember that. Our constitution and form of government was never intended to promote ONLY that freedom which allows one citizen to exploit others. Quite to the contrary, our government was ALWAYS concerned with protecting the interests of all citizens, that is, promoting the general welfare. Government “of, by, and for” the people is by definition a collective, like it or not. So when a government of, by, and for the people enacts laws that act in the best interest of all its citizens, as opposed, to say, just allowing a few–in the name of “freedom”–to do whatever they wish regardless of its effect on others, that is the most American thing it can do. (Incidentally, it is also one of the more “Christian” things to do, and while I do not promote the idea of any sort of religiously based government, those on the Right, who consistently tout the Judeo-Christian “traditions” of what they deem the “real” America even as they line up with business interests, would do well to remember that their Jesus had a lot more to say about treating the poor with kindness than he did with promoting free-rein Capitalism.) If I believe in promoting fairness across the economic spectrum, that is my right, and there’s nothing “un-American” about that belief, even if you don’t happen to agree with it. If you have a different opinion about how our economics should work, good for you. But labeling others’ opinions as “un-American” is simply a lazy attempt to squelch discourse and dissent. I agree that solutions need to take into account both the needs of management as well as labor, but we will never agree upon an intelligent course of action so long as we continue with the automatic “name calling” of any idea we don’t agree with. As to your issue with having too many unskilled workers, I tend to agree. But we must confront the idea as well that in an increasingly automated work environment, we simply will have too many workers to fill the “skilled” jobs as well, and in any event, we will always have need for “unskilled” labor, and these folks need to be able to support themselves on the labor they do. As a citizen of Louisiana, I like to use as an analogy the tragic case of Hurricane Katrina. When the storm hit and folks started pouring out of New Orleans, the “haves” among us starting blaming all of those who were trapped on rooftops in the city, or who were forced to evacuate to the Superdome. “Why didn’t they just get out of town?” everyone said. But let’s consider that issue for a moment: First of all, it’s a fact that many of these folks didn’t have the means to evacuate. They didn’t have cars, and they didn’t have credit cards to just check into hotels in Houston or in Florida as the “haves” might have done. But what if they did have the same means as others? What if there had been 100,000 MORE cars trying to escape New Orleans on that weekend? I think many of us–the “haves” included”–might STILL be sitting in traffic on I-10! The fact of the matter is that in a country this large, with an economic system this complex, we will ALWAYS have a pool of displaced, underemployed, or “unnecessary” people that the workforce simply can’t absorb for one factor or another. Should these folks simply starve? Or if they do find work, should they be doomed to working for a wage that doesn’t permit them to survive? Why work at all, then? Again, these issues demand sober thought and solutions which may not satisfy ONLY those on the management side of the equation. Pretending that all workers can simply, through attending college or whatever, “pick themselves by their bootstraps” is a ridiculous folly. Even if everyone did just that, at the end of the day, we would not have “skilled” jobs for all of them. (Ask the students graduating from college right now!)

    2. Should a person performing a job that only required two hours of on-the-job-training make more than, less than or the same as a person who just completed an Associates Degree that took two years to earn?

  62. The quality difference between employees at In and Out compared to most other fast food places is like night and day. Granted, offer more starting out and places like McDonalds will get higher quality people. But in the meantime you’d have to fire 98% of their workforce. Those losers would be right back on the streets rioting.

  63. No franchise overhead you idiots, In-N-Out are family privately owned, so sure they can afford it…..Idiots.

    1. Not to mention that since they aren’t franchised and everyone is paid directly by the company – the better performing stores essentially subsidize the lower performing stores (in terms of customer volume).

  64. I was waiting in line at In and Out and watched the gentlemen wrapping the burgers take Ice out of his cup and put the ice in his mouth fingers and all and proceed to wrap the burgers.. I was 1 car back. when it came time to pick up my order, I just kept driving and haven’t been back since. Disgusting.
    These places are not about the customer. They are about money..
    Make your own food before you leave the house. You’ll save money, eat better and live longer not to mention create less trash.

    1. If you were “3 cars back” (which I take to mean you were in the drive-thru), how did you see what the guy in the kitchen inside the building was doing?

        1. That must be a pretty big take out window then. Like a huge picture window in a living room I guess. Cause I’ve never seen the kitchen from any drive-thru window I’ve ever been to.

  65. All you have to do is look at the difference in quality of employees between the two. In-n-out employes smart articulate people whereas McDonalds typically employs the bottom of the ghetto. There is a huge difference in quality and service…..besides in-n-out is a premier burger place and McDonalds is tasteless and markets off their dollar menu.

  66. It’s a different philosophy. In N Out workers hustle their tails off. In return for a higher wage, In N Out expects a higher effort.

    1. In N Out is also entirely company owned (no franchise costs) and is located in the higher income areas of the small region of the US where they operate.

  67. A McDonalds employee very recently put up a sign at work: Sorry out of Frise. Is that worth $15 per hr to you? Or maybe it will pay for Language lessons…..

    1. I saw a picture from the protests. “Super size are wages”

      I guess he gets paid in burgers and fries?

    2. yes, in the same way as you I discount everyone who is against illegal immigration because I saw a sign saying “Illeagle”. And it is not correct to capitalize “Language”

  68. How do you justify the CEO of McDonald’s being paid 8.75 Million last year if they can not afford to pay their employees a fair livable wage?


      McDonalds is a franchise operation. McDonalds doesn’t pay their employees. The individual franchise owners pay their employees, and they pay McDonalds for the rights to the intellectual properties of the company. So whatever a store makes in a year is the entire operating budget for that store – labor costs, supply costs, utilities costs, franchise costs and taxes.

    2. OK, let’s distribute EVERY dollar Top Gun made to McD’s employees (even the franchise ones) equally and fairly.
      McD’s has 500,000 employees, at least, but let’s call it THAT #.
      Let’s assume each employee works 20/hr week or 1000 hours per year.
      Thus we have FIVE HUNDRED MILLIOIN person-hours worked….and that BIG 10 million to divide.
      I am SURE each worker will thank you for stripping the CEO and giving them….2 cents per hour each.
      Hell, let’s go ALL the way down the officer chain, steal EVERYTHING, and leave only regional managers on down in place, OK?
      Wow. THAT action results in….a whole 30 cents per hour each.
      You all need to get over the rich CEO thing. The market is paying him what he is worth, and you what you are worth….
      Leaving the US taxpayer holding the big ugly white bad saying “McFrigged,” on the side.

  69. Typical Liberal blather. In-n-out pays more because they don’t hire just anybody. The employees hold themselves to a higher standard. You won’t find in-n-out workers with Hickeys, or tattoos that say “Mi Vida Loca”. Try comparing apples to apples.

  70. If you have two kids, are a single mom and trying to live on a McDonald’s job… well don’t blame McDonalds or think you can tax it’s customers for your poor planning.

  71. It’s easy to demonize McDonalds–the corporation. Liberals do it all the time–along with Wal-Mart and other successful businesses. What Liberal media types don’t bother to understand (because they’re lazy partisans) is that McDonalds doesn’t set the pay scale–franchisee’s do.

    1. yes, and I rarely hear free-market advocates acknowledging how many employees of McDonalds and Walmart are also receive government benefits. Those free-market corporations are passing the costs on to the taxpayer.

  72. Bad comparison. Just because they both sell burgers doesn’t mean they’re the same. In-N-Out is a privately held company that runs all its own stores. McDonalds is a publicly traded corporation that operates a franchise system.

  73. Just say thank you and shut up…maybe McDonald’s doesn’t want to pay cashiers $15 per hour….if you work at those other places then just say thank you but BUTT out of other restaurant’s business…

  74. I’ve never seen a McDonalds with a line that circles the building.
    The local In-N-Out always has a line.
    Superior food, superior service = higher pay for employees.

    1. Don’t forget the 33% work force employed by InO. They require a third the staff, but the staff do three times the work. They’re EARNING their wage, unlike the McDs employees who take a dozen people to do one thing.

  75. Did anyone catch the “catch”? If they increase the minimum wage people will lose their jobs. Brian Parker, co-founder of Moo Cluck Moo, said, “Instead of having a dozen people standing around at downtime, we have three or four. And during that time they are cleaning and prepping food.” He also said he prefers that the government shouldn’t
    mandate a higher minimum wage. So, people will lose their jobs. In that case you better be a better worker than your fellow employees so that you have a chance to keep your job at a higher wage. WAKE UP AMERICA!!!!!

  76. Problem is it causes disparity between skilled labor and non skilled labor. Why should a burger flipper make the same as a first responder? Escambia county in Fl is hiring FF Emts for $14hr. They have to go to school and get certified? It has nothing to do with profits, but pay for what the job is worth. So now we will have entry level collage graduate jobs making the same or a little less than a worker in a fast food chain! Hence the pay disparity!

      1. Here it is right off the hiring site: Job Title: Firefighter Recruitment Range: $12.49 – $14.35 Hourly
        $999.20 – $1,148.00 Biweekly
        $25,979.20 – $29,848.00 Annually
        Job Type: Full-Time/Part-Time Location: Fire Services (FS) Escambia County, Pensacola, Florida, Florida
        Firefighters in Florida have to be an EMT, if they get their paramedic certification their base goes up.
        Some countys and cities pay more, but this is a good example of the disparity I mentioned

  77. If McDonalds can become an international franchise with millions of employees, why can’t in and out? Maybe because they are making bad business decisions, like paying people who can’t make change over $10/hr.

  78. From my observations there is a big difference in the quality of employees at In & Out vs McDonalds. Could it be that In & Out uses better hiring techniques to get above average employees?

  79. Today’s CEOs are simply greedier than previous generations and that is why the U.S. workforce has been declining. Fortunately for Americans, we are not gonna turn into a Chinese workforce because we poses one thing China does not (democratic system of law). Workers can be pushed only so far until they revolt and demand more from their employers and lawmakers. That’s what caused unionization in this country in the first place.

    1. You are 100% correct. Executive pay and shareholder profits are 2 of the most wasteful costs of a company. And what value do they bring? Do they provide service to a customer? Of course not. Were it not for this wasteful profit layer in their business model these companies would be able to pay their workers great wages. And I say this with experience being a business owner myself. I pay very good wages and have some profit. But it’s not a big deal to me because I pay myself a good salary too, so I don’t need a bloated profit margin. I just offer great service and run a good business. MCD needs to figure this out.

  80. Why does the government have to get involved. If the people don’t like their pay, quit and go to work for somebody that does pay more. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out this idea. Eventually mcdonalds, wendys and all the rest that don’t pay more will be the ones suffering.

    1. Guess you haven’t heard the one about having a job before quitting your old one. When unemployment is over 6% that might be easier said than done.

  81. WGY CANT WALMART !!!!! Whos kids are making Billions every year on PROFITS !!!! But Low pay scale, Cheating employees out of hours to stop from benefits to, And even cutting back on Customer service to save even more money…They don’t care how much they pay, as long they can pocket more

  82. This reporter obviously didn’t pay attention to one of the reported facts:

    “This falls in line with what Brian Parker, co-founder of the restaurant Moo Cluck Moo has to say: “Instead of having a dozen people standing around during downtime, we have three or four. And during that time they are cleaning and prepping food…We have designed our restaurants to run efficiently and pay people more.”

    Mr. Parker, while paying his employees almost twice the minimum wage, also points out that he’d prefer for the government not to mandate a higher minimum wage. Perhaps if there were more companies like Mr. Parker’s, the government wouldn’t have to.”

    If the minimum wage increases, there will be fewer jobs because stores will use only the minimum number of employees they must. Make up your minds, liberals — more pay, or more jobs? You can’t have both. You want a good paying job? Go to a trade school and learn to weld or wire houses. Yeah, you’ll have to get sweaty and work hard, but you’ll make a good paycheck and be able to get a job pretty much anywhere.

  83. If America is to remain free: A fair wage is determined by an employer and an employee. Not the government or anyone else’s notion of what is fair. The price of an item is determined by the free, competitive market. Not the government or anyone else’s notion of what is fair. In a free society, consumers, employees, employers do not need anyone, especially the government to “help” through their notions of fairness with respect to pay and price. Free people take care of themselves and determine for themselves what is fair or unfair and the free market responds fairly. Otherwise, you are acting from a victim mentality and inviting those who want to keep you there. Don’t get me wrong, government has a role in our society, but not in wage and price “fairness”. That is the domain of free people.

    1. You are 100% incorrect. The Constitution of the United States grants Congress the power to regulate commerce. The reason for this is that employees and employers are rarely if ever on even footing when negotiating salaries. And history has proven time and again that when left unregulated that business will exploit workers in every way possible, including paying too little. So therefore we vote for and elect representatives who pass laws establishing a Federal Minimum Wage. It’s called Democracy. And without no one can be free.

  84. This issue is far more complicated than this article contemplated. Its easy to point to an easy issue that everyone can, on the surface, agree with such as higher wages for everyone. The trick is to set the business model across a wide variety of quality employee pool choices and make the model work. The comparison is not intellectually fair for reasons that needs to be discussed in a way that may not be pleasant for many to hear.

    Take a look at “In and Out” and their expansion history. It is an interesting study of just how much they value the quality of their employees,,,and they do,,,very much. It determines their expansion horizon. Its a reality that will take courage for people to discuss.

  85. Think of fast food as a stepping stone, i worked at fast food for minimum wage when it was below 5.00, I didn’t make a career out of it. HINT…….HINT. If you want real money get a education and move up to something better. Americans have been doing it for years and not bitching about it.

    1. That was then, this is now. Something like 80% of Min. wage workers are grown adults. If you want to get people off social services, pay them more. Its that simple.

      1. If you want to get people off of social services, then do something about runaway real estate and the rent. There is no catch-up for most of us who want our own home.

    1. No. The Double-Double is $3.50 and the single burger is $2.
      It is because In-n-Out does far more business but has very few locations compared to McDs.

  86. Even IF McD’s could pay more than minimal wage, why should they? The employees arent doing a job that warrants a pay greater than $8.50/hr. If they don’t like it, then look for work elsewhere, or get an additional job, or get a degree that would help catapult their career. They are completely replaceable. Mc’D’s in not in business to provide people with jobs. They are in business to make money.

  87. It’s called the “Free Market” companies can pay what they can afford based on their business models, and employees are free to work anywhere they want to. The only thing worse than this system is price & wage controls, it’s failed miserably EVERY time it’s tried.

    1. It’s also called the United States of America. Where we have a Constitution which gives Congress the power to regulate commerce. And one of these legal regulations is the Federal Minimum Wage. If you don’t like it then vote for a representative that agrees with you.

  88. Actually the writer of the article should try comparing the actual prices of what you get at Moo Cluck Moo compared to McDonalds. If all the prices were to be raised at McDonalds and Burger King to that level then so would all the prices of every product that relies on minimum wage. In the end, we would all be talking about raising minimum wage again because it still failed to accomplish its goal.

  89. This article does not explain how the businesses are set up and how it effects the cost of business. In and Out owns all their restaurants and McDonalds uses a franchise system for example. But the author makes it sound like they are identical and therefore should operate the same.

  90. Because…because

    Because In-n-Out does 5 to 10 times the business of a typical McD. Anybody who bothers to do their homework might notice the line of cars that extends out from the drive-thru lanes into traffic and down the block at a typical In-n-Out location around lunch time and through the evening.

    Shame on Labor Secretary Thomas Perez for making such a stupid statement.
    He needs to stop focusing on Labor and start looking at the whole picture.
    Good labor demands good sense.

  91. demand elasticity based on the comparison of price to value. Higher-grade fast food gets a higher price for better quality. people would not buy McDonalds at Inn-N-Out prices and Inn-N-Out could not make money selling at McDonalds prices.
    so the question is, then, how many people would forgo McDonalds at current price + $1?

  92. Obviously the labor secretary has never run a business, which is sad, The business model at In and Out is much different the menu is limited where Mcdonalds and burger king has many many items, having all those items are labor intense and require more workers.Also, the quality of worker at in and out is much better than Mcdonalds ,everyone speaks perfect english and they always get the order right. Unfortunately, most of the workers at Mcdonalds would never make it at In and out and if Mcdonalds had to raise their wages most of those workers would get replaced. Minimum wage jobs are a starting point not a career position.

  93. Perez can’t be that stupid, can he? It’s a different business model! I’m embarrassed to share a last name with him. It’s no different than those idiots that suggested Walmart should be more like Costco. In n Out doesn’t have a $2 hamburger or a $6 value meal. It’s $10-$15 for a person to eat there. A family of 4 is dropping $40. If you’ve got $5 and you’re hungry, where are you going to eat?

    It’s economic illiteracy to suggest that McDonalds is no different than In n Out. Quite frankly, even if they were the same, it wouldn’t matter. Nobody is forced to work at McDonalds. If they don’t like the pay or working conditions, they should find another job. It’s not the job of the employer to ensure the employee is making a sufficient income. That’s the job of the employee. The bottom line is: nobody has to eat at McDonalds and nobody has to work at McDonalds. If you don’t like them, for some reason, don’t affiliate with them. If enough people feel the same way, they’ll change their business model or they’ll go out of business.

    1. Nope! A Hamburger is $2.05, a Double-Double is $3.40 and fries will set you back a buck-sixty. In-n-Out does 10 times the business, but with fewer locations. That’s why.

      1. Really….just looked at their menu online and you are being veerrryyyy progressive.
        I mean, YOU ARE LYING.

        1. The only one LYING is you Bart. I just checked the prices and slearwig is telling the truth. Although it does appear the cheeseburger prices seems to vary from place to place, all the other prices are exactly correct.

          Stop accusing others of lying if you have no idea what you’re talking about.

        2. Hey Bart. You are lying. In-n-Out has no pricing on their online menu. The only online pricing is from consumer food sites. And the prices are only up 3% in San Francisco since the minimum wage hike to $9 was passed in California. That’s not due to In-n-Out wages ($10/hr.) but the collateral impact in associate sectors due to raising the minimum wage.

          And Mr. Bart. I live here. I’ve eaten there since 1971. They are within 3 miles of my apartment.

          And (2). I am most assuredly a Constitutionalist, not a progressive or even one of yours. But the damned parties haven’t figured out how to make a career out of upholding Liberty.

          Thank you Ross0317. I love defending truth.

        3. Any time. I’m a progressive & a constitutionalist. I suspect we may not agree on the details of what that means. But the truth is the truth.

        4. No he is not, and neither are you. Where did you check these prices? Not online! Go to one and check for YOURSELF…I had lunch there today (and yes, the burgers are good, the staff pleasant, and the manager very willing to tell me why she can pay higher wages….simply put….”We work our asses off.”

  94. “Perhaps if there were more companies like Mr. Parker’s, the government wouldn’t have to.” That’s exactly the point.

  95. One big difference between In N Out and McD’s is that In N Out is privately owned. McD’s is a Franchise, with much higher costs for franchisees.

    1. Essentially you are making a case against the franchise model. The company itself could be profitable and pay a living wage were it not for the franchise fees. If this is the cause of the problem then it should be done away with.

  96. Did this individual even go to the 2 places he talked about? Workers get paid what they are worth. The workers at “In and Out” are very friendly, they take your order read it back to you, not have you check a screen to see if it is correct. The food is cooked fresh not taken out of a drawer and slapped on a bun. If I double your wage would I get double the work from you, and what skills do you bring to my place that makes you worth $15 an hour.
    And last of all which of your co-workers would you pick to lose their job so that I can give you their wage

  97. Ummm. Because in and out charges a lot more and because McDonald’s advertises a lot more. I know, have McDonalds double their prices, that would work.

    1. How about have them be more successful at business. If a company cannot afford to pay a living wage and still be profitable then maybe they shouldn’t be in business. Why should I have to subsidize their low pay just because they have a bad business model. They should pay a wage that does not force their employees onto welfare or close their doors, simple as that.

  98. All the minimum wage actually does is prevent a company from offering a low wage job (for those lacking the skills to take a higher paying job). Anyone can create their own “minimum wage” by simply refusing to accept such jobs. Either way, they will find fewer available opportunities. In the 60’s and 70’s the gas station pumped your gas. No longer. That service was made possible because high school boys were willing to work for the low wages it paid. Those jobs are gone forever. those same kids now work at McDonalds. Should we take those jobs away too? Such jobs were never intended to support a family, but they did serve to teach a work ethic at a young age. That was a good thing. let each individual decide what pay he will accept. That way we all have a maximum amount of freedom. In 1971, I happily worked part time as a lab assistant at the high- school ( a fairly skilled job) for $1.25/hr equal to $7.35 today because it paid more than cutting grass. That job would be illegal in Michigan today, abridging my freedom to take it and pursue happiness. Offering me a job I don’t wish to take is not abuse! Its an opportunity.

  99. McDonald’s does pay more than minimum wage in many places in the US. It’s not the job of the government to sent wages for private industry.

      1. I didn’t say it wasn’t a law. It’s not the job/role of government to set wages if a free market.
        Are you so vacant you feel every law on the books should be enforced?

        1. You are wrong. Read the Constitution. The power to regulate commerce is granted to Congress. Thus it is the job/role of government. You may not like it, but that you cannot deny that is one of our governments functions.

        2. Regulate commerce does not mean wages. Pretty poor stretch on your part. If your way of thinking correct why not make minimum wage 70,000 / year? Or 100,000?

        3. It’s not by me Pat. That was established by Congress and affirmed by the Supreme Court. Take it up with them, not me.

  100. My guess is that as top dog he does not pay himself a ridiculously obcene yearly salary of 22mil plus per year as does Mcdonalds nor does he pay the higher ups in his company similarly obcene yearly salaries. Makes it easier to share the wealth in a successful company when you eliminate the parasitic swine at the top.

    1. Who, after all, merely BUILT the company, achieved financing, got the idea, you know….added value.
      You, as a burger flipper, I can replace in a heart beat. And given your last name, I would do so.

      1. Total BS. Current MCD execs had nothing to do with building the company and making it successful. If anything they’ve been responsible for the decline of the company. Look at all their news of same store sales declining. What value exactly are they adding that someone on minimum wage could not? Seems like any idiot, such as yourself could ruin a company. No need to get paid millions for that. Anyone arrogant enough to believe that executives are more important to a company than any other worker doesn’t have the slightest clue as to how a business works.

        1. Go back to reading Karl and the gang, Ross. Your understanding of business and what is necessary to actually conceptualize, finance, build, manage, and profit by same is absolutely zero.
          Tell you what, Ross, you are so farking anti-elitist….as you would put in in those liberal wet dreams you enjoy so much….when you need surgery, call me.
          After all. I can read and write, and therefore am every bit as good a surgeon as the gal who spent, oh, 15 years learning how to be one!

  101. All the examples of companies paying well are not publicly traded companies. McDonald’s is bound by law to provide maximum profit to wall st. There are no laws guaranteeing employees be fairly compensated.

  102. Reason 1: They only have 2-3 different items on the menu and they do a very good job with that, therefore, operating cost is significantly less than other fast food chains.
    Reason 2: Did you ever see how hard these kids at In-N-Out work? They bust their butts the whole time they are working.
    Reason 3: They all actually speak proper English.
    Reason 4: At least from my experience, they’ve NEVER messed up on my order.
    So they do actually deserve higher than minimal wage because they actually add value.

    1. Reason 5: In-N-Out is family owned, they don’t have to come up with franchising fees every year
      Reason 6: Not sure if they deserve more than minimum wage, but they definitely deserve more than 99.9% workers in other fast food chains.

  103. The workers at In-N-Out take and make orders correctly. They aren’t surly to customers and they speak English. They deserve more money than the minimally-skilled employees at McDonalds.

  104. Here’s the aspect about all this no one has explained. Right now, the “typical” McDonalds worker is a high-school kid or GED/high school graduate. Millions of higher educated and more qualified workers are currently unemployed, but these educated unemployed are not interested in a $7.50/hour job. Start offering $15/hour for these jobs, and these more educated (and more qualified) people are going to start applying for and taking these jobs…now the jobs have become more attractive. The less educated are now put out of work. Do you agree this is how market forces (& supply and demand) would play out?

  105. in n out pays well because the owners are very religious. ill wait for the ” shes crazy” before I tell you why. I live 10 mins from the out n out college and first in n out BTW

  106. There is a simple answer to the Question asked in this ‘Head Line.’
    Because McD’s is all about profit like Walmart. It could care less about its cheep work force. In fact they want a cheap work force.
    I did a study about Walmart in Grad School. And I found out this:
    Do you notice how Walmart ends their prices in 4, 5, 6, 7, & 8?
    i.e…$3.46, $4.28, $7.34 etc……..
    If the ended there pricing with a (9) instead, i.e… $3.49, $4.29, $7.39 etc……. like all other stores. Walmart could pay EVERY employee $12.00 per hour and still make a higher profit margin. And if they no one would notice this small price increase!!!!
    So why don’t they do this? The answer is simple. By paying their employees less as McD’s & Walmart does, they attract a lower class work force. (Please don’t that this as an insult to minimum wage workers. It is not meant to be.) A work force that they can control and miss treat easier.

    1. I have noticed, and I will tell you why this is done. WalMart uses this pricing system to indicate which items are on clearance; which are to be phased out; which are on sale; and the like.
      Adding a few pennies to the price of each good sold would, well, enhance WallyWorlds revenue by….hmmmmm. About 0.1% (you mention small tix here, but big tix are where the money is for anyone).
      Sure. $300 million would help pay employees….about $0.08 more per hour. I guess every little bit helps.
      Trade in that diploma for another box top.

  107. In N Out has the best burgers at a great price — and no blue hair, tats or piercing! Many working at other fast foods would NOT meet the criteria to work at In N Out.

  108. Um… In n out has 290 locations and mcdonalds has 35,000. Also in n out does not have a dollar menu. (helps pay for salaries) This might be the dumbest article I’ve seen all week.

  109. Minimum wage increase is just a scam by the democrats to increase the revenue to the government. They can then “buy” more votes and stay in power.

  110. Why should an In ‘n’ Out worker get pain more than a McDonald’s employee? Because that restaurant is a class act with employees that are on their way up and are actually trained. In ‘n’ Out uses fresh ingredients. McDonald’s messes up my order every single time.

    I’ve already stopped giving any of my business to fast food other than places like In ‘n’ Out and Chick Fillet.

  111. It’s funny they talk about this but they don’t compare the prices at the places they are talking about to the fast food places. also In-N-Out has pretty much a local Market. Many of their places are strictly drive thru or walk up Windows on a very small piece of porperty!

  112. Well here, let me explain it to you with some nice simple numbers:

    1) In-and-Out Burger had 290 locations across 5 states, and around 18000 employees as of April 2013. They usually operate around 14 hours a day.

    2) Moo Cluck Moo owns 2 locations exclusively in Michigan (according to its website), and is only open 10 hours a day on any given day.

    3) McDonald’s owns 35000 locations across the entire world, employs 1.7 million people across their various franchised restaurants, and tends to operate their restaurants around 18 hours a day.

    Do you think you might see the problem with your comparison now?

    See, dear journalist, it’s a simple question of numbers. Smaller chains can afford higher wages because their expenses are comparatively much lower than those of a fast food chain serving numerous countries and employing. They’re open for less time in the day, and they’re paying a lot less people (not to mention they’re not paying franchising fees to the owners of individual stores since the chain is small enough to be run as a unit) as well as running a lot less locations. If In-And-Out Burger was even remotely as large as McDonald’s, their costs would be so much higher that they couldn’t afford to keep paying those wages. Burger King is a magnitude smaller at only 13000 locations, but is still in roughly the same boat for the same reasons.

    Isn’t it interesting, though, that this article neglects to mention White Castle, a group of comparable size to In-And-Out (a little over 400 locations, though more spread out)? Wonder why that is….oh right, because they already said that if minimum wage was raised to $15 an hour, they’d have to shut down nearly half their locations and fire roughly as many workers. Guess that wouldn’t help you make your (politically charged) “point”, would it?

  113. In and Out are not 24 hour day facilities and menu is limited and most likely not as many franchised owners that have 7 or more under their command to operate thank you

  114. In-N-Out is a private company and probably has a much lower overhead as a result of being private and not having to deal with with all the public company geovernment bureaucracy.

  115. Ross 0317:
    A CEO adds more value than a minimum wage worker, by definition. Even your buddy Lenin acknowledged that (from each according to his gifts, to each according to his needs – later modified to – according to his contributions).
    Your statement below that a minimum wage burger flipper is every bit as valuable as a line manager or the CEO is quite simply false to fact – at least according to the market, and oh, yes, according to everyone ELSE.
    I challenge you to run ANY business beyond managing your own underwear (and even those are filthy, Ross Alexandar!).
    You are a liar, a fake, a scammer, or just a plain idiot. You could have run nothing but dishwater your entire life and STILL not provide the contribution that any mid-level manager does for ONE MINUTE of her time on a DULL DAY.
    Epic fail.

  116. that would not be the case. If mcdonalds, burger king had to pay 15.00 per hour prices of the product they sell would not increase by the same amount. The products that they buy are purchased still at the same amount and are relatively inexpensive. I was told and I am sure that google’ing this will back it up that it would save the average consumer money to pay 15.00 per hour. I was told that due to most of those workers now are on public assistance and so much welfare goes to those workers that if you calculate the price for a .99 cent burger and add the cost of that public assistance it costs 1.79 per burger sold. If we raise the wage to 15 the majority would no longer qualify for public benefits and the cost per burger would be 1.59 cents. So based on the info i was given it costs us more as a country to pay them near minimum wage than if we just raised the wage and paid 1.59 per dollar burger.

    1. Your faulty math is easily exposed by pointing to the prices of burgers at these other “wonderful” restaurants that the article mentions.

      In-And-Out Burger’s lowest costing burger is $1.90, and Moo Cluck Moo’s burgers cost $3.79 minimum. And neither of those companies has nearly the amount of overhead and corporate nonsense to deal with that McDonald’s has. Given the various extra factors that a corporation like McDonald’s has to deal with (things that a purely-based-in-the-USA chain doesn’t), it would be perfectly reasonable to presume that a single cheeseburger at McDonald’s would go north of $2 if the minimum wage doubles. And since no one would go for that, the alternative is that they close a lot of locations and fire a lot of workers. White Castle stated they’d have to close half their locations and fire about as many workers to make it work and they’re much smaller than McDonald’s, so you could probably presume similar numbers for McDonald’s if not worse. Which means that about 800k people could potentially lose their jobs.

      There’s a reason that the government has historically raised the minimum wage very, VERY gradually: the economic consequences of doubling the minimum wage would significantly hamper the economy. I don’t disagree that it needs to come up, but $15 an hour is a ridiculous expectation when the current wage is $7.25. Raising it to $8 would be a much more reasonable hike that wouldn’t blow the economy’s kneecaps right off.

  117. Article was well written but they didn’t tell us the price of burgers at this restaurant. I used to work as a manager at McD’s. There is profit being made but not that much. If I had to pay my workers $15 hr. How much do you think it would cost for a burger and fries? We would see McDonald’s start and lay off workers because they couldn’t have the staff. Econ 101 -“if McDonald’s lays off workers we have a economic crisis.”

  118. If In-N-Out Can Pay (a Lot) More Than Minimum Wage, Why Can’t Whining McDonald’s workers go work there?

    Problem solved.

    Nobody is forcing them to stay and work at McD’s, they CHOOSE to.

  119. In-Out doesn’t have a dollar menu either. Look at the average price of a burger there. So if all these places take that away we will notice?

  120. As a small business owner I find the business model of McDonald’s and Walmart and others like them completely offensive. Why should they get their labor subsidized the government? They should pay a livable wage just like the rest of us do.

    I run a very successful business and pay my employees a very good wage as well. And that is on top of providing their health insurance at no cost to them. Why do this? Because it is good business. These executives at MCD need to figure out how to run their business without getting their employee wages propped up with welfare and other aid. They should pay a living wage or close their door, just like the rest of us do. If I can do it then so can they.

  121. Very simple. Marketing. How many In and Out burger commercials do you see per day? How many different burgers and menus have they had over the last several years?

    McDonalds markets, sponsors and tries different menus all of the time and that costs $$$. In and Out has served the same burgers and same crappy fries from the start, you hardly ever see an In and Out sponsored NASCAR vehicle or dozens of commercials a day.

  122. First off, get the emotion out of the conversation and let supply and demand decide where wages and associated price for goods should be. At the end of the day, if you want higher wages, get a job that pays higher wages. All this talk about the government stepping-in to raise the minimum wage, it’s the government’s policies that have brought us to the current situation of high unemployment and stagnation.

    1. We are not addressing the true issue. That issue is Corporations that can pay higher wages, refuse to do so. Walmart is a classic example. They are making billions in profits. The Walton family has aggregate wealth that equals what the bottom 40% of all Americans are worth. Why can’t these companies pay decent wages when they can afford to do so?

      1. “Why can’t these companies pay decent wages when they can afford to do so?” If you really need to have someone answer that question… the answer wouldn’t help you any.

        1. Therein lies the problem. They don’t have to so why should they? How about treating their employees fairly? Oh I forgot, Corporate America couldn’t care less about their employees. Their attitude is, ‘If you don’t like it, you know where the door is. There are plenty of other peons more than willing to work for slave wages.’

  123. McDonalds can pay more …

    However, McDonalds won’t pay more …

    I would’t eat their “swill” anyway, but …

    How about voting with your dollars?

    If you work for minimum wage, eat elsewhere …

    If you don’t work for minimum wage, but think hard working people deserve at least a dignified life ..

    Eat elsewhere.

    In-and-Out or your own kitchen at home.

    1. “but think hard working people deserve at least a dignified life ..” Do you have any idea how monumentally naive you are? You know… it would be great if the world were all kitties and puppies… but it isn’t. Grow up.

      1. After graduating with honors from a major college, working as a CPA for over 20 years as a Big 8 auditor, a Corporate Controller, a Chief Financial Officer and putting together over $15 billion worth of successful acquisitions …

        I don’t consider myself naive …

        BTW, what brand do you pump down at the local gas station?

        FYI, I do like kittens and puppies.

        However, unlike all too many Americans I don’t “feast” on the “dog-logs” served up by political comedians like Bill O’Really? and Rush (“ing on sedatives”) Limbaugh …

  124. It is not a question of what a company can pay it is the market value of the labor that determine wages. There is not single one these protesters that can not replaced by central American child given a two week training program. The primary work force in fast food is teenagers who don’t need a living wage. The fact that these people had they spent the same time in energy in obtaining a higher paying job would have one means this is political theater by people with an axe to grind ginned up by big unions desperate to stay relavent

  125. The problem is that we made a deal a long time ago to offshore our “highschool to work” middle class paying jobs in exchange for cheap junk sold at Walmart. Many of those fast food, retail, and service workers would be in factories making good quality products and making enough money to really boost our economy. We decided to transition for the sake of saving a few dollars, and now prices are still going up while wages still fall short. As consumers and voters we need to make a decision as to what’s more important. There are no “quick fixes” to this problem. Raising minimum wage is only a bandaid. People are still going to be in the same position economically but now with added pressure to be “more productive” because they will have fewer coworkers and more responsibilities. Supervisors and Managers in these industries don’t have a reputation for being great “leaders”, this will put pressure on them to increase productivity and they will in turn put pressure on reduced staff to produce more. This will also affect healthcare, as you have more stress related health issues showing up at the doctor’s office. That means more people accessing “FREE” healthcare services, a greater burden on tax payers not to mention the health care system. The solution will require sacrifices by all Americans. We can sit around and blame political parties, but at the end of the day we are the only ones who shoulders the blame and has the power to solve this problem.

  126. Federal minimum wage needs to be 15$ and there needs to be price freezes till the economy balances out. Everyone is just afraid of poor people raising out of the gutter

  127. I earn much less than Labor Sec Perez and Paul Krugman and have a regular full time job yet my wife an I opened up an run our own restaurant. Why aren’t Krugman And Perez buying and running restaurants so they can pay what ever wages they want to instead of telling others what they do. They have the money

  128. Because In-N-Out doesn’t charge only a $1.00 for a burger. Hey, your Vegan organic local grocer could pay $15.00 an hour too!! Of course, that would make your kale enema shakes cost about $50.00.

  129. McDonald’s restaurants are individually owned by franchisees; All In ‘n Out are owned by one person. Let’s compare apples to apples here…

  130. Not all business models are the same. It is great that some businesses can pay a lot. So get a job with them. That is the way it works. Government can take less tax money from those that make minimum wage. The government can expand on the EITC which will help but does not get the politicians any votes. Raising the minimum wage will continue to only hurt those that need help the most by totally removing them from the work force and raising prices for everyone else.

  131. If you think you’re scaring anyone by telling us that prices are going to go up as a result of mandatory wage hikes, it won’t work. In case you haven’t noticed, they’re already up.

  132. you liberal idiots. MD is NOT the issue. BK is not the issue. Wendy’s is NOT the issue. It is the mom and pop eateries and shops and stores. The VAST majority of enterprises in this country are…. wait for it…..SMALL BUSINESSES. This min wage crap will DEVASTATE small business employment. You think a lot of businesses have gone under in the last few years, you ain’t seen nothing when you double the labor costs for someone who employs a handful or even 50 people. Beware of unintended consequences

  133. WHy because McDonald are profit driven not people driven thats whats wrong with America the average worker not just minimum wage jobs are being exploited by corporaTIONS.They can pay more than $10 no problem they choose not to. Thats why they hate unions because union insist on fair wages. It is time for all American the other 99% to stand up and demand a living a wage. I have 2 degrees and Im malin what it did 10 years ago

    1. 80% of McDonalds and other fast food places are franchises twit. The huge corporation is not who pays them. It’s a small business owner who owns 1 or 2 locations, usually.
      And yes, they’re profit driven. Because there’s no other reason to be in business and employ others. Grow up and get over it.
      You want to put your life savings on the line and work 16 hr days for 30 years just for a warm fuzzy feeling, go right ahead. Best of luck.

  134. So they can do it by hiring better employees that actually work instead of a bunch of stand around and goof off bums. Makes sense to me, lose the dead wood and the good employees can make more. Just a different way of looking at it, if you can pay $15.00/hr., you don’t need to get high school kids and drop outs to do the work, instead you can get college kids, veterans, retirees, in general a better class of worker. Of course, those are not the ones working for minimum wage now and thinking they deserve more.

  135. Get a raise,get a union,lose a part of the raise,for union dues and fees for their PACs and you will have no choice about it,obama has done that to you.Ask you employer for raise,if you don’t get one look for better job,don’t wait for obama handouts.

  136. lET ALL BE HONEST WITH OURSELVES..how many feel they are truly receiving a salary that truly compensates for their effort based on the profits of the company you work for.

  137. Here’s the answer to your question; McDonald’s grosses $28.1 billion in revenue per year among 1.9 million employees. In N Out grosses $625 million in revenue per year among 18,000 employees. Revenue per employee at McD’s is $14,800. Revenue per employee at In N Out is $34,722.
    So, why can In N Out pay roughly 30% more in salary to its employees? Because per employee, its 135% more profitable. In fact, that kinda flips the whole narrative (that In N Out treats its employees better) on its head. McD’s pays a larger share of its revenue in salary than In N Out does.
    In N Out obviously has a far superior business model. I have no idea specifically what it is that makes In N Out so much more profitable per employee and per location (I wish I did, I’m sure McD’s would pay me a fortune to tell them), but there’s your answer. And no, please don’t try to tell me its executive compensation. Don Thompson made $13 million last year. Even if you spread that full amount out among the employees, its $6.50 PER YEAR in additional money to each employee.

  138. In N Out and Moo Cluck Moo are privately held companies. McDonald’s has to answer to the stockholders and we know what happens is a public companies misses expectations. This problem is not caused by corporations like McDonald’s but by Wall Street and it’s investors.

  139. Every single one of the 41 Republican senators that blocked the minimum wage bill will receive an automatic cost-of-living adjustment of $2800 on January 1, 2015.

  140. This is getting boring. You can spin it any way you like but these are the facts: The problem is corporate GREED and an unwillingness to share profits with lower end employees. Example: In Sweden a Mc D’s employee makes around 20 bucks an hour because the Swedish Government mandates it. The cost of a Big Mac is FIFTY CENTS HIGHER if you buy it in Sweden. You are all believing a bunch of Hooey posted by Right-Wingnuts TeaBaggers and Fox News Cretins. Listen to the B*S on this site: LOW END WORKERS DON’T DESERVE ANY MORE MONEY…LET THEM GO TO COLLEGE…THEY’RE ALL ILLEGALS AND LOSERS…WE’LL PAY TEN BUCKS FOR A HAMBURGER…All that is Gar*Bage of the finest degree. If the Minimum Wage is raised and the workers spend it will boost the entire economy. Economists already admit that McD’s is prepared to absorb the cost of a hike to 10.10 an hour with NO INCREASE in prices. Of course they will NOT tell you this because they are having a ball enjoying the sweat of SLAVE WAGES they pay employees. It is a national disgrace.

  141. pure greed,a lot of fast food joints pay more than minimum wage,White Castle and others,

    Every state has a different min wage,and these chains dont bitch,and their prices dont change.Corporate Greed pure and simple.

  142. What will happen is people will lose their jobs. It happens every time they raise the minimum wage. McDonald’s and their investors will want the same profit. The mom and pop will go out of business because they will be forced to raise prices and don’t have the luxury of firing a small staff. If the people working for the minimum wage want to really improve they can get an education or learn a valuable trade, like plumbing or painting. What we really have here is someone who wants to be paid $15 for pushing the picture of a double with cheese and taking it from a cook and putting it in front of you. That is just the truth, and half the time they have an attitude problem. Just a fact

  143. Okay, I myself think people are freaking out way too much about minimum wage…McD’s could just say fuc* employees, we’re going robotic…too many times am I given the wrong order, a mcdouble short, or fries shorted..they do not deserve $15 an hour..it’s a job that requires nothing, but using your head. A robot wouldn’t screw up my order, would have it made on time..I don’t have to worry about some “pissed” off employee who spits in my shit or worse. Managers make, in certain places more than a teacher with her masters makes. This is just a joke. We should look at our city or state gov’s first before trying to tell a corporation how to treat their employees.

  144. They seemed to have passed over the Good news –bad news —in their article about raising the minimum wage. A million lifted out of poverty and a half million loose their jobs. But then the half million will land on the welfare rolls and probably stay there !
    But as with all thing liberal if it feels good at that moment screw the long term consequences

  145. if there were more companies like mr. Parkers the world would move forward again .ya cant move forward without paying the bottom if the bottom is payed more they spend more .helping the economy grow. it can’t keep going the way it is it will breakdown!!!!

  146. ‘…the democratic process may step in and do so for them…?’ What part
    of— this is the United States of America and NOT the phuchkink Soviet
    Union or communist China— doesn’t this loon Eric JUSTIAN get? When govt imposes edicts and sanctions against freedom and liberty there is NO democratic process anymore, this is called socialist/fascist/totalitarian coercion.

  147. So if the minimum wage is increased to $15 an hour. What happens to those who have already “earned” their $15 an hour!

  148. Well, then I’d suggest that people quit McDonalds and go work elsewhere! Simple…I love In and Out Burger, but I also know I’m going to pay more and there is no kids playground there either……lots of stuff missing to make up for it…Better yet…at least go to junior college and try and get ahead – you may not have $40,000+ but you might just use McDonalds to work while you are at home and save some of it for at least a two year degree. There were no freebies growing up and my family didn’t have an extra nickel. That’s life…Many people I know worked their way thru school. But you have to want it.

  149. bad thing about raising the wages at McDonalds to $15 an hour??? What about the person who is working at a better job and getting the same amount of money??? Is that fair??? Some asst. Mgrs. in small stores only make $35,000 a year, but someone flipping burgers is going to be out there making $31,000 a year? And when the cost goes up, so will cost of food and housing.

  150. Grant you, min. wages in general have not kept up with housing or even gas. 30 yrs. min. wage tripled. 30 yrs. housing 20-folded as did gas. That’s just for starters. But, 30 years ago, many families did not expect to be treated to Happy Meals and personal phones for 10 yr olds. and hand held computers. it’s all crazy. We had 1 small tv. Most did in my neighborhood. Now, most kids have tv’s etc. in their own personal room.

  151. Most McDonalds workers are slow and in general not too bright. Raise the wage to $15 hour and they can hire a better caliber employee who can do twice what their replacement did. You can’t just force businesses and economies to do things as they react and adjust.

  152. This is real simple. MD’s has the right to pay their employees whatever the law allows. If you don’t like their corporate policies then don’t eat there. I haven’t been in a MD’s in years.

  153. Been to In and Out. Burger is fine. They have a really limited menu, requiring less folks. can’t address their pay scale, but the minimum wage should be the wage agreed to by the employee and employer….. get the Feds out of it.

  154. Technology increases in recent history, for the most part, were accompanied by productivity and pay increases. The steam shovel replaced pick and shovel workers, but those workers could move into higher paying jobs that were needed to support the steam shovel. Everything from making steel, manufacturing components, assembly workers, transportation workers, maintenance and operation workers. With more money and time on their hands the need for houses, cars, etc… increased.

    It is my opinion that individual productivity reached its peak sometime in the 1980’s (if anyone wants to give me a multimillion dollar grant to verify that please let me know) and that increases in technology after that point increased productivity by reducing the number of individuals involved in producing the product. For example, Parkdale Mills, a textile producer in South Carolina reopened in 2010. It produces 2.5 million pounds of yarn a week with about 140 workers. In 1980 it would have required over 2,000 workers to produce that amount of product. Increased productivity by reducing the human component.

    I own several businesses, recently my full time bookkeeper retired and I replaced her with a person making half of what she was making per hour. I could do this because of software that automated the bookkeeping processes to the point where it is now a ten hour a week job and the person doing the job doesn’t even have to understand accounting, just where to plug in the numbers.

    As a business owner this comes down to return on investment (ROI). Do I hire a human being or incorporate some kind of software or automation to carry out the functions that I need.

    To be honest, no matter how you shake out the numbers, people are expensive.

    In addition to whatever you pay them there are the things that happen to all humans that don’t happen to machinery. Late because of traffic jams, missing because of illness, upset because of some happening in life, complaints to HR because a co-worker said something stupid, saying something stupid that causes a co-worker to complain to HR, demands for a raise (deserved or not), constantly increasing governments regulations that cause increased costs, etc… Machines on the other hand; never are late, rarely get sick (occasional computer virus), don’t tell dirty jokes that get you threatened with lawsuits, don’t quit and then four months later try to collect unemployment, have fairly fixed maintenance costs, etc…

    Even our tax code provides business with greater tax deductions and incentives for investing in real estate, machinery and equipment than it does for investing in human capital. As an example: You can cancel the extended warranty on your machinery and not get penalized $32,500 per machine by the IRS, unlike with humans!

    Other than face to face interactions with another human, machines are far more cost effective and easier to maintain.

    Even fast food is moving to eliminate cooks, Google “Momentum Machines” and Appleby’s has moved to eliminate waiters by letting the customer order at their table, just Google “The Waiter Terminator”. Combine both of these together and the only workers left at fast food restaurants will be the janitor and I am sure that someone will invent a robot to do that, Google “Robots Could Take Over Every Job” for a future that is not far away.

    Supply/Demand – The main reason that wages are suppressed is that there are more people wanting jobs than there are jobs. This is being hidden by the way the unemployment numbers are being counted (shadowstats) and the massive benefits the government is providing, otherwise there would be rioting in the streets.

    On April 19th 2011, McDonalds hired over 50,000 thousand workers; the sad part is that there were over a million applicants for those 50k jobs. Imagine; a million people lined up at McDonalds asking for the privilege of being able to say “do you want fries with that?”.

    Solutions: The problems as I see them are Supply/Demand and ROI so the solutions will need to address these specific areas.

    Supply/Demand – We have too many people for the available jobs at all levels of the market; high, low and middle. As much as we want to help the world we have become that person in a plane when the oxygen masks drop who fails to put on their mask first and thus dies while trying (and failing) to save everyone around them. Government programs that encourage large families need to be cut back. Immigration needs to be cut back to critical skills (and I can’t think of any skills that we can’t grow here) until the point where only 30k people apply for the 50k McDonald jobs. As the supply of workers dries up, the amount that business will need to pay for those workers will also go up. It is hard medicine but we can take it now at our own pace or have it forced upon us at a later date.

    ROI – Trying to legislate increases in wages will only result in a few people with higher wages and a lot more losing their jobs to automation. At $15.00 an hour for a human, retrofitting with “The Waiter Terminator” becomes very tempting and almost a necessity.

    So the question is how to make humans more valuable than machines?

    From a business point of view the tax code is where this can be done most effectively. We need to make it more advantageous to hire people than to buy machinery.

    I have a possible solution that is workable, but those who hate business probably won’t like it. If you want to create jobs that have a minimum wage of $15/hr just double the amount of deductions that a business could take for that salary range. If you pay below $15/hr you only get a single deduction ($10/hr will get you a $10/hr deduction and $15/hr will get you a $30/hr deduction). You could start tapering off the double deduction at say $25/hr and completely eliminate it at $35/hr.

    If you want to increase domestic jobs then make this policy only apply to jobs within the borders of the US and only for citizens of the US.

    Within six months there would not be a single person making less than $15/hr as it would make no sense to pay them less and since the tax code will no longer treats machinery better than humans it would make sense for me to hire another full time bookkeeper.

    I would also grant businesses a double deduction for any training they provide. Even though I pay tens of thousands of dollars in taxes to the local school district, there seems to be the thought out there that as a business I need to train my employees in how to do the job even if that is learning how to do basic math and how to write something that is longer than 140 characters without using smiley faces or hashtags!!

    There you go – for what it’s worth.

  155. Those workers who aren’t happy with their wage at McDonalds can always go apply for a job at one of the fast food outlets that pays more. That is the way Free Enterprise is supposed to work. But of course we no longer have truly Free Enterprise.

  156. Seems there is no reason that the federal government can’t pay secretaries the same as the president. Let’s pass a law…

  157. Here’s a question… why is it any of your business what McDonald’s pays their employees? And when was the last time any of you tipped the cashier at McDonald’s??

    1. It’s our business since the only reason McDonalds can keep wages that low without facing constant strikes is because their employees get food stamps and other aid from the government. If taxpayers are basically paying your employees for you, then there is a reason for the government to get involved.

      1. So, Sandbun: you see the hole-so-wide-you-can-drive-a-truck-through-it flaw in your logic now that your comment has been up for 18 hours, right? Hint: It’s STILL none of your business what McDonalds pays its employees, although it may be your business what aid your government provides to unskilled, minimum wage workers.

        1. If my tax dollars are subsidizing McDonalds, which is it because McDonalds couldn’t pay these wages and keep employees if the government wasn’t adding providing their workers with food stamps, then it is my business.

        2. Once again–what McDonalds pays is none of your business. Your tax dollars are subsidizing McDonalds because the people you voted into Congress are idiots, not because McDonalds’ pay scale is any of your business. Tell your Senators and Representatives to stop subsidizing McDonalds if you don’t like it–that IS your business.

  158. why share profit the pay is equal to skill so since they the nations lowest skilled people the pay is lowest plain and simple

  159. Open your own business and pay what you want. Tired of people saying what someone else needs to do!! Do it yourself

  160. I agree. Businesses like In-n-Out and Costco set standards that other businesses refuse to be competitive with so their CEO’s can pocket more money while their employees starve. I am NOT a proponent of a $15 minimum wage for some 16 yr old who mops the floors at McDonalds. I AM a proponent that if they are actively working their way up to management, supervisor and maybe someday an owner and have spent yrs working there, they should have a gradual raise system. I also do not like when someone says “I need more $ because I have 3 kids”. Your life choices don’t dictate how much you deserve. Your level of work/employment dictate your pay level. I see no problem setting a minimum wage as long as it’s reflective of the labor level. Unskilled labor like operating a cash register is NOT skilled labor.

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